Parameter Inverter > High Battery

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mosbergh
Forum Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 pm
My RE system: Flexpower Radian 8kW:
GS8048A
2x FM100-300DC
FN-DC FlexNet DC
Mate 3s
Batteries: 4 "BYD" LFPs 200AH at 24V nominal, 2 banks x 2 in series
Diesel generator FG Wilson 14 kVA (20 yrs old)
Location: Man-o-war cay, Bahamas
Contact:

Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by mosbergh » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:29 pm

Just had our system installed - on one of the tiny Bahamas islands that had been destroyed by hurricane Dorian. 7 months now, and still the grid isn't up yet - with more delays now thanks to corona.
Before, we had to run our generator at about $25 worth of diesel every day: what a relief that the need for the refueling trips and the racket have disappeared!

We had the system installed by a solar company - and used the Simpliphy parameters to set up 4 x 5kWh BYD-Box LiFePo batteries. All is well, but there is this Inverter > High Battery parameter, that is - what I could find out - not documented anywhere.

What does it do - and how should it be set?

I'd appreciate some guidance here.

Cheers from the Bahamas,
Hans

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by Mike Curran » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:04 pm

The GS8048 manual says this:
Screenshot_20200324-190359_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
Link to manual: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/docum ... manual.pdf
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

mosbergh
Forum Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 pm
My RE system: Flexpower Radian 8kW:
GS8048A
2x FM100-300DC
FN-DC FlexNet DC
Mate 3s
Batteries: 4 "BYD" LFPs 200AH at 24V nominal, 2 banks x 2 in series
Diesel generator FG Wilson 14 kVA (20 yrs old)
Location: Man-o-war cay, Bahamas
Contact:

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by mosbergh » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:18 am

Thanks for the reply,

but I was looking for an explanation for the following detail parameters under 'Inverter > High Battery':
- Cut-Out Voltage (currently set to 58V)
- Cut-In Voltage (currently set to 58V)
- Cut-Out Delay (currently set to 10s)

The high- and low voltage / charge parameters are already set in
- Absorb Voltage and Time 54.4, 1 hour
- Float Voltage and Time 54 (default), Time = 0 = Disable
- Re-Float Voltage 50 (Disabled, leave at default)
- Re-Bulk Voltage 50.8

so: where do the 'High Battery' parameters come into play, and how should they be set? The Simpliphy app note doesn't make mention of them.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:03 am

Are you referring to a setting on the Mate3s menu? I don't have a Radian inverter but I do have a Mate3s and there's no sub-menu in my Mate3s for High battery...

My guess (FWIW) is whatever you're looking at may be an update to the GS8048 high battery setting (cited in previous post above). Looks like the high battery is now fixed at 58 volts, not 68, and as the manual states it clears when voltage drops below 58 (not 68) volts. If you're having trouble with battery voltage going above 58 bolts then I don't think the solution is to raise the high battery cutout. You need to figure out why your battery keeps going so high. All your charge parameters look good - are they the same on your charge controllers? If your CC charge settings are too high that could be why your battery voltage keeps exceeding the high battery cut-out.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

mosbergh
Forum Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 pm
My RE system: Flexpower Radian 8kW:
GS8048A
2x FM100-300DC
FN-DC FlexNet DC
Mate 3s
Batteries: 4 "BYD" LFPs 200AH at 24V nominal, 2 banks x 2 in series
Diesel generator FG Wilson 14 kVA (20 yrs old)
Location: Man-o-war cay, Bahamas
Contact:

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by mosbergh » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:46 pm

Thanks again for your response, but:

these are regular, settable parameters. So what should I set them to?

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:04 pm

Again, I would refer you to the GS8048 manual, which clearly states the high battery cutout is fixed and not settable.

Edit2: Sorry to be so blunt - So I tried to look up your battery, hoping to find a manufacturer spec for high voltage limit, and this tech spec https://en.byd.com/energy/b-box-ess/ says the operating voltage range is 44.8-57.7 volts, so my guess is that 58 volts may not be too low a setting for these batteries' high voltage cutout. I can't find any info about an absolute, "do not exceed" limit for their battery...

(Edited to correct earlier reference to a higher voltage battery model that doesn't apply to your system).
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

mosbergh
Forum Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 pm
My RE system: Flexpower Radian 8kW:
GS8048A
2x FM100-300DC
FN-DC FlexNet DC
Mate 3s
Batteries: 4 "BYD" LFPs 200AH at 24V nominal, 2 banks x 2 in series
Diesel generator FG Wilson 14 kVA (20 yrs old)
Location: Man-o-war cay, Bahamas
Contact:

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by mosbergh » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:36 am

Thanks Mike,

I guess this thread is wearing itself out a bid - but clearly, this parameter is settable:
Untitled.png
and it seems redundant in meaning to the charge limits that are set in the battery section.
Could'nt find it addressed in the manual.

Thanks for the battery reference!

Cheers,
Hans

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by Mike Curran » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:36 pm

Hans, I'm sorry - thanks, I learned something. - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

fcwlp
Forum Guru
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by fcwlp » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:00 pm

mosbergh wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:29 pm
We had the system installed by a solar company - and used the Simpliphy parameters to set up 4 x 5kWh BYD-Box LiFePo batteries. All is well, but there is this Inverter > High Battery parameter, that is - what I could find out - not documented anywhere.

What does it do - and how should it be set?
Hi Hans, you are correct that the OB App Notes for the SimpliPhi batteries do not address the "High Battery Cutout Voltage" (HBCO), "HBCO Delay" or "High Battery Cut-in Voltage" found in the Inverter's Charging Menu.

First the HBCO function is a function that appears to have been initially designed to protect the inverter and stop the inverter from functioning if the battery voltage exceeded 68VDC. On the Radians, as you have observed, it is now adjustable from 56VDC to 68VDC, and is time for a Radian manual update. With the adjustable voltage range, it can also be used as a "fail-safe" (I was thinking of a different word) method to shutoff the inverter if the battery voltage goes too high.

The OB Application Note for the Discover battery gives the following values:
- HBCO - 58.0Vdc
- HBCO Delay - 5 seconds
- High Battery Cut-in Voltage - 56Vdc

The above seem to be reasonable values for a situation that you should never get to with your absorb voltage of 54.4Vdc.

mosbergh
Forum Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 pm
My RE system: Flexpower Radian 8kW:
GS8048A
2x FM100-300DC
FN-DC FlexNet DC
Mate 3s
Batteries: 4 "BYD" LFPs 200AH at 24V nominal, 2 banks x 2 in series
Diesel generator FG Wilson 14 kVA (20 yrs old)
Location: Man-o-war cay, Bahamas
Contact:

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by mosbergh » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:52 pm

Thanks again - I have used these settings, using the Optics-Re interface.

By doing so I noticed that both CCs had deviating settings - I went into each separately and straightened them out.
Initially, all programming was done by the installer through the Mate3s: I have looked at the menu, it wasn't obvious that there are 2 CCs, and each of them needed separate programming. I actually assumed the Mate3s would write the chosen parameters to both.

Surprised this doesn't appear to be the case?

Cheers,
Hans

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2323
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by raysun » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:54 pm

mosbergh wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:52 pm
Thanks again - I have used these settings, using the Optics-Re interface.

By doing so I noticed that both CCs had deviating settings - I went into each separately and straightened them out.
Initially, all programming was done by the installer through the Mate3s: I have looked at the menu, it wasn't obvious that there are 2 CCs, and each of them needed separate programming. I actually assumed the Mate3s would write the chosen parameters to both.

Surprised this doesn't appear to be the case?

Cheers,
Hans
Yes, the CCs are architected as autonomous units and don't need, nor use, the Mate for basic settings.

The Mate can be used to send advanced charge control signals to the chargers (float coordination, charge termination, etc.)

Do a quick check of the battery voltage at the charge controller B+ B- terminals. If the measured battery voltage doesn't agree with the displayed voltage, the unit can be calibrated via the Mate.

fcwlp
Forum Guru
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by fcwlp » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:12 pm

mosbergh wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:52 pm
Initially, all programming was done by the installer through the Mate3s: I have looked at the menu, it wasn't obvious that there are 2 CCs, and each of them needed separate programming. I actually assumed the Mate3s would write the chosen parameters to both.

Surprised this doesn't appear to be the case?
Hi Hans, if the installer had used the Mate3s profile wizard function they would have programmed both CCs correctly or at least the same. On the Mate3/3s when you observe or program systems with more than one CC, the port number of the CC displayed is shown at the top right of the Mate3/3s screen. You have to toggle between them using the "Port button" on the bottom right of the Mate3/3s.

It is good that you are learning your system.

I think we all agree that it is easier to observe and program using OpticsRE, especially when entering an 1,100 AH battery where your hand gets tired going around the control wheel.

mosbergh
Forum Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 pm
My RE system: Flexpower Radian 8kW:
GS8048A
2x FM100-300DC
FN-DC FlexNet DC
Mate 3s
Batteries: 4 "BYD" LFPs 200AH at 24V nominal, 2 banks x 2 in series
Diesel generator FG Wilson 14 kVA (20 yrs old)
Location: Man-o-war cay, Bahamas
Contact:

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by mosbergh » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:40 am

Thank you all for your comments and valuable insights! I am getting more familiar with the system by the day, and ii continues to exceed our expectations!
The 'real' test will be running a split AC unit once the heat arrives here on the islands: I may need to add more battery capacity: the panels are more than enough - usually the current (nominal) 20kWh bank is topped off by 1030 to 1100.

Cheers,
Hans

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2323
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Parameter Inverter > High Battery

Post by raysun » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:00 am

Good to hear things are getting "dialed in".

For the future, you may wish to add to your profile:
Exact panel model(s) and wiring configuration of the solar array.
Exact battery model and capacity of the battery.

While lithium batteries are more tolerant of cell addition after commissioning than lead acid, they are not entirely immune to the issue of capacity imbalance between cells. The BMS is called upon to manage minor capacity variations that can make a big difference in cell voltages, but there is the risk that too large capacity variations may not necessarily be handled fully. Capacity degradation is a natural part of aging, so it would suggest getting any anticipated capacity increases in place as soon as practical to keep any inherent imbalances to a minimum. The lead acid guideline of no more than 6 months from commissioning would seem prudent here as well.

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