Off Grid upgrade

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Off Grid Applications

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gtarolli
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My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:57 am

In your first pic it looks like you reached 100% before 2pm. Yet from 2-4pm it also looks like you put almost 1kwh into the Batts each hour. This seems high for floating. What's your absorb time setting? If you were really in float mode then maybe your BCF is too high as that can trigger 100% prematurely. I can't remember the recommended settings for the 3.8 phi, my 3.4 have a .1 hour absorb time.

EMCF
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Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by EMCF » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:04 am

I would be glad to inherit your first world problems, David \:D/
Outback Fanboy at your service

sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:11 am

gtarolli wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:57 am
In your first pic it looks like you reached 100% before 2pm. Yet from 2-4pm it also looks like you put almost 1kwh into the Batts each hour. This seems high for floating. What's your absorb time setting? If you were really in float mode then maybe your BCF is too high as that can trigger 100% prematurely. I can't remember the recommended settings for the 3.8 phi, my 3.4 have a .1 hour absorb time.
Sent you a PM
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

EMCF wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:04 am
I would be glad to inherit your first world problems, David \:D/
LOL, not so sure you’d like the path that got me here :grin:
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

EMCF
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Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by EMCF » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:24 am

sodamo wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am
LOL, not so sure you’d like the path that got me here :grin:
I'd take all that, and then some, including your 12X 3.8 type Simpliphi :-"
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sodamo
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Posts: 830
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My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:39 am

EMCF wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:24 am
sodamo wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am
LOL, not so sure you’d like the path that got me here :grin:
I'd take all that, and then some, including your 12X 3.8 type Simpliphi :-"
But they come with the 12 Rolls Surettes and 21 Aquions that preceded. and a few hundred gallons of generator fuel. :grin:
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

EMCF
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Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by EMCF » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:12 am

sodamo wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:39 am
But they come with the 12 Rolls Surettes and 21 Aquions that preceded. and a few hundred gallons of generator fuel. :grin:
But your Almighty Hawaiian dollars overcame all that :grin: Is that even 1:1 with the mainland dollars? lolz
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sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:22 pm

Looks like this will be our 3rd day at a PV deficit.
Generator kicked in at 4:40 this AM. This was the diesel charging via the FXs. Worked great. I shut off after 2 hours. This was a 2 min voltage AGS start. Unfortunately the Stop triggers are very limited, especially without FNDC. I’m still exploring adding my extra FNDC to this part of the system. Being as it will connect via own Hub and Mate3s I don’t see any conflict with the Radian side.
Debating 2 alternatives for hook up. See my crude drawing below.

1 - install a 2nd shunt in the FX Neg feed or
2 - 2nd set of sensor wires from Shunt C on the Radian to the new FNDC. Have asked an EE friend for his opinion.

Changed FX from AGS to Gen Alert with Start @ 50.8 and Stop @ 52 as starting values. No experience with Gen Alert.

The Radian ran generator Exercise via AGS this morning as programmed. Seems everything working as planned \:D/
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David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

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Greg T Fordan
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My RE system: Radian, FM80, FNDC, 48V batt bank

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Greg T Fordan » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:06 am

I go with installing a second shunt (in series with shunt C) that goes to the second FNDC for the FX system
Greg T Fordan
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sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 am

Greg T Fordan wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:06 am
I go with installing a second shunt (in series with shunt C) that goes to the second FNDC for the FX system
Thanks Greg. Any insight as to your preference?
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

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Greg T Fordan
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My RE system: Radian, FM80, FNDC, 48V batt bank

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Greg T Fordan » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:04 am

Remember, my initial reaction before was there is no need for a second FNDC.
Since you have a spare FNDC, and you want that for better AGS control on your diesel generator attach to the FX side, yes you can do that. I prefer putting an additional shunt in series with shunt C, so that it will be an "independent" reading, although in a perfect world, the amount of current that will pass through shunt C will be the same amount of current that will pass through the added shunt. So expect the reading shown on shunt C will be equal or very close to the reading to be shown on the added shunt.
Contrast that with just using the shunt C serving both FNDCs. You are paralleling here two FNDCs, and in my opinion there is a margin of error there.
Greg T Fordan
EngTech
Outback Power Technologies

sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:12 am

Thanks Greg. I assumed there might be some difference either method, but I’m not smart enough to figure out which might be more acceptable.

On a different note, how would you Stack these FXs given there is no AC output, strictly DC charging?
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

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Greg T Fordan
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My RE system: Radian, FM80, FNDC, 48V batt bank

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Greg T Fordan » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:35 am

sodamo wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:12 am
On a different note, how would you Stack these FXs given there is no AC output, strictly DC charging?

Since you just reported that you had a successful diesel generator run, I am sure you stacked them correctly on the AC IN side =D>
On the AC Out side, you do not have to stack them and leave them as is. But in case you want another 120/240 out, just connect the common (AC Neutral Out) together, and now you have AC Hot Out 1, AC Hot 2 and Common for a 120/240 out.
Greg T Fordan
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Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
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Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:04 pm

David,

If you use an FNDC for the FX system it needs to see everything going into and out of the battery bank. The easiest solution would be a new dedicated shunt installed between the battery bank and the rest of the system. One side of the shunt is the battery bank. The other side of the shunt is the Radian and FX system.

The second option is the double lug your FX shunt sense wires to the 3 existing shunts in the GSLC. This will be a pain and might be less accurate. I would put the new FX shunt sense wires on top of the Radian shunt sense wires to help minimize any extra voltage drop they might cause for the Radian FNDC. Once you are wired up pull up shunt channel info on each Mate3 to compare. My guess is the difference in reading will be negligible. Accessing the screws on the sides of the shunts in the Radian GSLC shunt bus is not for the faint of heart. You will probably have to pull out the entire bus to make it happen. This is your best option for headaches and bloody knuckles. The first option is much simpler but it will take some rework on your battery negative bus.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:11 pm

Thanks Kurt
A bit of clarity. If I read your comments correctly I need to connect all three radian shunts to the 2nd FNDC? Or if adding a new shunt somehow capture all the use by the Radian and Fxs? Does that render my idea as diagrammed above as undoable?

I suspect if I only capture the FX use I’d likely get a different SOC (assuming FNDC calculates SOC based on the 1 vs 3 measurements). Even so, as a standalone such value would be consistent and meaningful (to me) even if only using the FX measurements. If erroneous logic PLEASE let me know.

You are right as for accessing the screws on Radian shunts. Can’t see how I could without some disassembly.

If adding a shunt, I could do just before the split as in pic below. Of course this would only give me the single connection measurement fron Shunt C.
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David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
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Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by raysun » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:59 pm

If I read Kurt correctly, a single shunt could service the 2nd FNDC. It would be wired: battery <-> Shunt <-> Inverters.

This single shunt scheme much the same as many of the stand-alone 'coulomb counter' battery monitors - like the Victron 7×× series.

gtarolli
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My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:21 pm

what is the purpose of the 2nd FNDC again? If it is measure SOC so that the second Mate can use that for AGS, or for any other reason,then that means you have to have both inverters and 4 FM chargers measured by it. It seems to me that is fraught with potential problems unless you run the sensor wires from the second FNDC to the first set of shunts (all three). It seems an easier path is to figure out a way to auto-start the 2nd genny from the Radian's Mate, i.e. one gen uses the AGS and the other uses another relay (which probably means no exercise and less total control).

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Kurt Lundquist
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Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:45 am

sodamo wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:11 pm
If I read your comments correctly I need to connect all three radian shunts to the 2nd FNDC?
That is one option.
sodamo wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:11 pm
Or if adding a new shunt somehow capture all the use by the Radian and Fxs?
Yes and no. You just need to capture all the amps in and out of the battery. The setup would basically be as raysun describes "battery <-> Shunt <-> Inverters". To make this happen you need to put the shunt in a central point that sits between the battery strings DC- and the rest of the system. Sometimes this is best accomplished using a bus bar mounted shunt with 2 bus bars on either side. OutBack offers a brass bus that sits on the OutBack 500A shunt to create 2 extra lug positions. Spectrum has a lot of options https://www.spectrumind.com/index.php/shunts.html. Just make sure whatever shunt you use is 10000:1 ratio (500A:50mV or 1000A:100mV etc).
sodamo wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:11 pm
I suspect if I only capture the FX use I’d likely get a different SOC (assuming FNDC calculates SOC based on the 1 vs 3 measurements).
The FX shunt you propose does not see the amps that go in/out of the battery via the Radian nor does it see amps into the battery from the PV array. There is no way SoC would be reliable.

What is going on in that picture you posted? Is this a battery combiner with all the battery packs landing on a breaker?

Cheers,

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

gtarolli
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Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:12 am

I agree with: You just need to capture all the amps in and out of the battery.
I have an issue with this: "battery <-> Shunt <-> Inverters"
I think Inverters needs to be Inverters+PV

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Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
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My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:25 am

gtarolli wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:12 am
I have an issue with this: "battery <-> Shunt <-> Inverters"
I think Inverters needs to be Inverters+PV
To be more specific it is Battery <-> Shunt <-> Everything else that can take or provide amps to the battery (Inverters, Chargers, PV, DC loads etc).

-K
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:28 am

Oh well, was just a thought to take advantage of the extra FNDC and make it useful. I don’t see an easy way to get all the Radian on another Shunt. Probably just let the idea fester in the back of my mind for a while.

Yes Kurt, a battery combiner. I had it from the Aquion install so we used it with upgraded breakers for the SimpliPhis. Also made it convenient for breakers to power the FXs.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
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Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by raysun » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 am

However you end up configuring the system, I hope you document the hell out of it. It looks just slightly less complex than some nuclear power plants I've seen. ;)

The biggest lie an electrician tells himself: "I'll remember what this circuit does."

sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Good one Raysun

The only non standard on the Radian side is the neg feed t FXs off Shunt C.
I will document FX side but again pretty straight forward at this point, less than a normal FX.

Neg from Shunt C to FXs
Breakered Pos from Battery combiner to FXs
Aux feed FX to relay
FXs & Mate 3S to Hub
240 AC In to FXs

What might be less obvious are my settings which I’m still tweaking.

I make up a cribsheet in my housesitter notebook.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
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Posts: 2790
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by raysun » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:25 pm

Yes. It was more a note to myself, who never writes anything down.

I guess it comes from my formative years as a programmer where I adapted the motto:
"Real programmers never write documentation.
If the program was hard to write,
it should be hard to understand."

;)

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:57 am

So my latest idea regarding adding a FNDC to the FX side of my system.
Note, we had another PV deficit period resulting in FX autostarting diesel gen at 50.8v. This was probably around 35% SOC, but not sure my calibration is correct yet. This morning, it also ran the programmed exercise run, 2nd start of 2 week schedule.

As for the FDNC

I can remount the FNDC back in the GSLC under the Radian 4048. Location not really important as I will monitor via OpticsRE. Run the 12v lines to power. Run the sensor TP lines to the #1 FNDC and connect to its wiring block. Manual says “The wiring block can accommodate #12 AWG to #26 AWG (2.5 mm2 to .20 mm2) wire“, so maybe room. If not or I don’t have the 3 pair of TP perhaps I can use a length of Cat5 which is #24. I would then run RJ45 ethernet cable from #2 FNDC to the FX Hub. I would set this FNDC to same setting as #1. Probably take a bit to get them in sync. Not sure best way to accomplish, probably reset both same time some afternoon when fully charged? If this works properly I would gain SOC for AGS on the FX.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

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