system won't automatically shift into selling mode

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Megunticook
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My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
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system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:32 am

I recently upgraded my Radian 8048A's firmware to 1.6.7 and since then it no longer automatically shifts into selling excess power after charge parameters are met. Not sure this is directly related to the new firmware, but in any case I'm having trouble solving this issue.

Instead of selling power once parameters are met, the charge controllers just go into float mode (actually one goes into float, the other says "charged" and sits idle). I checked out the MATE3S settings when that happened again today, the system was in Grid-Tie mode and Offset was set to "Yes"--I tried lowering the sell voltage but nothing happened.

If I force the charge controllers into bulk mode, they briefly go into Absorption and right to "GT Mode" and all is well.

If the system is in Grid Tie mode, charge parameters are met, offset is enabled, and the sell voltage is below the float voltage setting, what would prevent the system from selling without my having to give it a kick-start?

Thanks for any ideas.
https://sunnypower.org

Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Mike Curran » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:30 pm

Megunticook - Make sure "auto grid-tie control" is enabled on your Mate3, under the "Global Charge" menu in Optics (see screenshot for my garage roof system).
Screenshot_20191126-192909.jpg
Last edited by Mike Curran on Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

gtarolli
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- 1 FLEXmax 60
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- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by gtarolli » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:03 pm

Just a side note , when the CC is grid enabled it raises the float voltage to the absorb setting to increase the delta from the sell voltage. in this manner you can keep the sell voltage just under the float voltage. If everything works according to plan of course.

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Megunticook
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My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
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Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:07 pm

Mike Curran wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:30 pm
Megunticook - Make sure "auto grid-tie control" is enabled on your Mate3
It is.
https://sunnypower.org

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Megunticook
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Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:09 pm

gtarolli wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:03 pm
Just a side note , when the CC is grid enabled it raises the float voltage to the absorb setting to increase the delta from the sell voltage. in this manner you can keep the sell voltage just under the float voltage. If everything works according to plan of course.
Yes, this is a nice feature, unfortunately it doesn't affect whether the system transitions itself into selling automatically.
https://sunnypower.org

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Megunticook
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Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
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Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:57 am

Same thing again this morning. Really scratching my head here. Here's the log from today so far:

Image
https://sunnypower.org

Mike Curran
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Posts: 1575
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:23 am

Maybe you want to try going back to the previous firmware version, just to see if that's the source of the problem...
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

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Megunticook
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Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:10 am

I may end up doing that. I suspect something else may be going on though, as I've had this issue occasionally since I first commissioned the system in 2017.

What's odd is that adjusting the sell voltage has absolutely no affect even when the inverter is selling. The only way I can regulate the voltage when it's selling is to adjust the inverter charger's float voltage. What do you make of that?
https://sunnypower.org

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Kurt Lundquist
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Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 am

Megunticook wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:32 am
I recently upgraded my Radian 8048A's firmware to 1.6.7
Was the Radian at 1.6.63 Firmware before the update?

I don't know what is going on but I have a few ideas on things you can try before rolling the firmware back.

Make sure the inverter charger settings for Absorb and Float are at least .2 below the charge controller targets. Make sure inverter Absorb charge time is < the charge controller Absorb time.

If you still have problems try disabling Auto Grid-Tie Control. I wonder the value of it on a system where you are not discharging the batteries at night. If you had AGM style I would just plan on selling close to the float voltage every day. I'm not as experienced with FLA but I almost wonder if it would be better to do a deeper discharge followed by a full Absorb charge every week or two. I don't think FLA batteries like to be kept at 100% SoC all the time. Meeting charge parameters every day with minimal discharge at night probably doesn't stir the sauce enough. You are likely much much more experienced with FLA than me so please feel free to school me up if I'm off base here.

If you still want to use Auto GT control it is a good idea to make sure the Inverters charger is enabled.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

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Megunticook
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Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:16 am

Kurt Lundquist wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 am
Was the Radian at 1.6.63 Firmware before the update?
It shipped to me in September 2017 so based on that I believe it was 1.6.63.
Kurt Lundquist wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 am
Make sure the inverter charger settings for Absorb and Float are at least .2 below the charge controller targets. Make sure inverter Absorb charge time is < the charge controller Absorb time.
CC is set to 54V float, 58.8V absorb. Radian charger is at 54V float, 58.8V absorb, although I've been monkeying with the Radian's float setting the past few days while troubleshooting. I'll go ahead and drop the Radian charger voltage parameters to 53.6 float and 58.4 absorb and see what happens tomorrow.
Kurt Lundquist wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 am
If you still have problems try disabling Auto Grid-Tie Control. I wonder the value of it on a system where you are not discharging the batteries at night. If you had AGM style I would just plan on selling close to the float voltage every day. I'm not as experienced with FLA but I almost wonder if it would be better to do a deeper discharge followed by a full Absorb charge every week or two. I don't think FLA batteries like to be kept at 100% SoC all the time. Meeting charge parameters every day with minimal discharge at night probably doesn't stir the sauce enough. You are likely much much more experienced with FLA than me so please feel free to school me up if I'm off base here.
I think you're right about doing a 70% or so discharge every week or two on these batteries--I've been shooting for once a month but the more I learn about these batteries the more I think they should be exercised regularly. If I can't get this to work with the Radian charger parameters adjusted as you recommended above, I'll try disabling Auto Grid-Tie control--although I like the idea of having a charge cycle at the beginning of each day ending with a brief absorption before the selling begins.
https://sunnypower.org

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:48 pm

Kurt - regarding your comment,
If you still have problems try disabling Auto Grid-Tie Control. 
that's how my system is set up (edit: with it enabled) and it works fine. Of course I have different equipment than Megunticook has. If it ain't broke...

Also, regarding
I don't think FLA batteries like to be kept at 100% SoC all the time.
The Rolls battery manual has this to say:
Deep cycle batteries will perform best when they are maintained at a full charge. By holding at a full state of charge this will extend the overall life of the battery bank. For float applications, such as backup systems, it is also important to use the battery bank on occasion as this will prevent stratification and sulfation.
Not very specific as far as cycling frequency but doesn't sound like you need to do a deeper discharge with a full absorb cycle every week or two. My battery is 12 years old now and still going strong, with minimal cycling. I try to do a discharge cycle every 2-3 months, and it was only 3 years ago when i got an FNDC that I started using its daily "charge parameters met" regimen.

A bit off topic, I know, but thought I'd add my 2 cents' worth. - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

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Megunticook
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Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:51 am

Hope everyone enjoyed Thanksgiving yesterday. We had a little storm here in Maine so I didn't get to test my configuration--panels were snow covered.

However, this morning I see that the system is selling all on its own so lowering the Radian charger's voltage parameters must've done the trick!

Thanks for helping me troubleshoot. My system as been very reliable and pretty much "set it and forget it"--but for some reason I've had a few occasions of grappling with this particular issue. Now that I have the Radian's charger parameters a bit below the charge controllers, hopefully that's behind me.

Mike, one sentence that caught my eye in the Rolls manual:
Deep cycle batteries will increase in capacity during the initial break-in period of 60-90 cycles
By that logic, with monthly discharge cycles it would take at least 5-7 years just to break these in. That's why I'm thinking I may do more frequent discharges.
https://sunnypower.org

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Megunticook
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Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:10 am

I'm still finding that adjusting the sell voltage doesn't seem to have any effect. The only way I can control that is by adjusting the Radian charger's float voltage. Not a deal-breaker since at the end of the day I'm still able to control the sell voltage, but I wonder why the setting designed to do that isn't working correctly. New firmware?
https://sunnypower.org

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Mike Curran » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:52 am

Megunticook - If your FM80s are in bulk as they should be following charge parameters met, and in grid-tied mode, then your sell and float voltage settings shouldn't matter. Bulk mode tries to push battery voltage beyond both of these, but the sell setting constrains voltage at the selling setpoint. So my question is, are your charge controllers in bulk or not?

Edit - So I reviewed your first post and see that your CC's are going into float when they should be staying in bulk after charge parameters are met. So the problem lies somewhere "there", not in your float or sell setpoints.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

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Megunticook
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Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 am
My RE system: 6.4 kW solar array (21 QCell 305 panels in strings of 3)
GS8048A FLEXpower Radian (Radian 8048A, 2 FlexMax 80 cc's, Mate 3s, FlexNet DC, Hub)
8x6v Rolls-Surette 550 FLA batteries, 428AH
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Megunticook » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:28 am

I know from past threads your system and mine seem to behave slightly differently here--when selling, my charge controllers display "GT Mode" which appears as "Float" in the OpticsRE log, but I've checked the target voltage on both controllers when they are showing "GT Mode" and they are both pushing toward the Absorb voltage. Until now the constraint was always the "sell voltage" setting, but that seems to have changed, and now the constraint is the inverter charger's float voltage.

Something has shifted but I'm not sure what. I suspect the new firmware but I could be wrong.

It is odd that your system log shows "bulk" while selling but mine has always shown "float." Be curious where our configurations diverge.
https://sunnypower.org

gtarolli
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- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by gtarolli » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:51 am

So if you kick off a Bulk charge cycle and the FM* hit absorb and then go to GT mode and all is well, then the FM settings seem good. Remember GT mode on the FM chargers are targetting the absorb voltage. You can verify that is true in one of the Misc screens where it actually shows you the target voltage (which is not displayed any where else).

It seems as though the Auto grid-tie mode is not communicating things properly to the charge controllers. When charge params are met, and you see the inverter go into GT mode, the Mate is supposed to tell the charge controllers to do the same I believe. If your logs show the inverters/Mate going into grid-tie mode (and disabling it at midnight), and yet the FM chargers are not, that seems like a bug. Or a subtle setting problem. Note there's a lot of places to enable/disable GT mode, each charge controller has a setting, the inverter has one, and the Mate. I think all need to be enabled. I think you know this, but maybe the firmware update changed one of them? Or there's a bug?

The only other thing I can think of is there's 2 reasons for charge params being met - one is some strange float reason that I don't fully comprehend, and the other is based on the FNDC settings. The latter is what normally should occur after/during absorbtion. The former sometimes occurs when SOC wanders I think - I have seen my SOC jump from low 90's to 100% and I think the reason is this. I wonder if that mode change doesn't trigger the GT mode in the chargers.

I am helping tune a system and the Radian is at firmware 1.6.70, and Auto-Grid tie mode with 2 FM80's seems to be working OK. The FM80's are at 3.3.0 firmware.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: system won't automatically shift into selling mode

Post by Mike Curran » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:21 am

It is odd that your system log shows "bulk" while selling but mine has always shown "float." Be curious where our configurations diverge.
I think it's just that some of my equipment is pretty old and maybe doesn't have the smarts to report the correct operating mode, which is float but with a temporarily increased voltage setting.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

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