Getting started.

Discussion about the MX60 Charge Controller

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Getting started.

Postby eenquist on Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:17 pm

I have had my small off-grid system generating for a couple weeks now and I am impressed with the performance so far. I have 2, 315w Sunmodules, 1, MX60, 1500w pure sine Samlex inverter and 4, 230ah Duracell golf cart FLAs from "Batteries Plus" for a 24v system. I cant seem to find any good specs on the "SLIGC115-6V" just going by what they told me for charging @ 28.8 for the bank and 26 float. They didn't have any info absorbing time, end amps and equalizing so I have set the absorb time for 2 hrs and the end amps for 4, and haven't decided on the eq. value. My current daily kwh is only 2-3 so the system is lightly loaded. The bank has been right at 24.6 in the morning down from 25.4 in the evening so based on my research that would be 20-30% discharged from full, and the charger is usually in float by noon. Are the settings I am using reasonable for the best battery lifespan or should I make some adjustments. Also what other parameters might be worth changing from the defaults.

Eric
eenquist
Junior Member
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:23 pm
My RE system: 24v nominal, off grid
2, 315w sunmodule
MX 60
4, Duracell 6v 230ah
1500w Samlex pure sine

Re: Getting started.

Postby Sasquatch on Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:00 pm

Your charge setpoints are right on and you should see good service life from the batteries because you are not hammering them overnight.
Maybe run the batteries up to 31vdc for a half hour once/month to keep them honest. :)

Best way is to get a good Hydrometer so you know how much and how often to EQ your batteries.
The Freas #99 is the bomb.
http://freasglass.com/Freas_Glass_Catalog_Dec2013.pdf
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Location: Green Bay, WI
My RE system: http://www.m2group.com/SolarPowerWeb/

Re: Getting started.

Postby larrywa on Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:34 am

eenquist wrote:I have had my small off-grid system generating for a couple weeks now and I am impressed with the performance so far. I have 2, 315w Sunmodules, 1, MX60, 1500w pure sine Samlex inverter and 4, 230ah Duracell golf cart FLAs from "Batteries Plus" for a 24v system. I cant seem to find any good specs on the "SLIGC115-6V" just going by what they told me for charging @ 28.8 for the bank and 26 float. They didn't have any info absorbing time, end amps and equalizing so I have set the absorb time for 2 hrs and the end amps for 4, and haven't decided on the eq. value. My current daily kwh is only 2-3 so the system is lightly loaded. The bank has been right at 24.6 in the morning down from 25.4 in the evening so based on my research that would be 20-30% discharged from full, and the charger is usually in float by noon. Are the settings I am using reasonable for the best battery lifespan or should I make some adjustments. Also what other parameters might be worth changing from the defaults.

Eric

Doesn't your morning loads interfere with the end amperes of 4.0? The CC unit should be sensing your battery charging plus the running load and may never actually work properly.
larrywa
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:25 am
My RE system: FlexPower Two
2 x GVFX3648s,
2 x FM80s,
FNDC w/3 shunts,
Mate3 v3.015.005 (works excellent!)
Hub 10.3,
PV:1000W east@45, 600W west@45, 2400W south@19 deg.
Battery:48v @ 130Ahr Crown batteries, deep cycle <$380 for 6.25kWh

ISY994i HA, Insteon, X10, Philips Hue, MiLight bulbs & RGBW strips
WebControl 8 as weather station stuffing
ISY994 variables via REST interface

Raspberry Pi3 x 2, Pi1 B+

Re: Getting started.

Postby eenquist on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:03 am

Larrywa,

So would I be better off going back to 0 amps? If not why won't it work properly?
eenquist
Junior Member
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:23 pm
My RE system: 24v nominal, off grid
2, 315w sunmodule
MX 60
4, Duracell 6v 230ah
1500w Samlex pure sine

Re: Getting started.

Postby Vic on Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:44 pm

Hi eenquist,

Have run CC EA for 8.5 years on several systems here.

CC EA CAN have an issue ending Absorb correctly, when there are relatively large loads on the inverter, which do not cycle on and off every 10 minutes or so, when the batteries are nearing the end of Absorb.

Normally one would add the DC currents represented by constant loads on the inverter to the proper EA current for the battery in use, and enter and use this as a beginning EA setting for the CC. Sometimes, one might need to add or subtract a small amount from this setting to get it right.

Large loads, like pumps, Air Conditioning (A/C) loads, etc could cause a delay, perhaps a long one, in the CC ending Absorb, as the CC needs to supply the currents for all of the loads -- the battery charging, and all of the inverter loads.

If you are using Flooded batteries, finding a good EA value to set into the CC is relatively simple, as you can actually measure the SOC of the battery at the end of a typical Absorb to see how well charged the battery happens to be.

Sometimes, with households that have out-of-control loads on the inverter, are not very good candidates for CC EA, as load shedding does not work well, as there is always someone wanting to use a lot of power when the CC is looking to end Absorb.

About 18 months ago, began using Shunt EA to end Absorb, with Classic CCs and the WBjr battery current measuring device. Works quite well, and inverter loads make, essentially no difference in how the Absorb stage is ended ... very nice!.

FWIW, just my experience with CC EA. Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
Vic
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Re: Getting started.

Postby larrywa on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:38 pm

eenquist wrote:Larrywa,

So would I be better off going back to 0 amps? If not why won't it work properly?


I think you are going to have to go back to 0 amperes and rely on the timer only.

If you had a pure Outback system I believe I could tell you how to set up the Mate3 with shunt current measurements to start Grid-Tie based on only your battery current as, if I read him correctly, Vic stated. Without another metering point for just battery current the End Ampere setting will be all over the place because your CC current output is not your battery current.
larrywa
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:25 am
My RE system: FlexPower Two
2 x GVFX3648s,
2 x FM80s,
FNDC w/3 shunts,
Mate3 v3.015.005 (works excellent!)
Hub 10.3,
PV:1000W east@45, 600W west@45, 2400W south@19 deg.
Battery:48v @ 130Ahr Crown batteries, deep cycle <$380 for 6.25kWh

ISY994i HA, Insteon, X10, Philips Hue, MiLight bulbs & RGBW strips
WebControl 8 as weather station stuffing
ISY994 variables via REST interface

Raspberry Pi3 x 2, Pi1 B+

Re: Getting started.

Postby Vic on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:25 pm

Looks like eenquist does not have a large system. So, the odds are that there are no large-ish loads on the system.

Using Shunt EA, IMO, is the best way to end Absorb, but eenquist is not in a position to use such a system, at this moment.

Regarding CC EA with Flooded batteries, one adds the DC component of the steady-state loads on the inverter (including the inverter itself) to the estimated proper battery current Finishing Current -- usually 1 - 3% of 20 hour Capacity. 2% is not a bad place to start.

So, even with varying loads on the inverter, as long as these loads cycle on, and off every 10 or so minutes, this is NO PROBLEM for CC EA, as when the loads are on the system, when the CC wants to end Absorb, as long as the load cycles off in a few minutes, no real problem. The Absorb may be extended by a few minutes on one day. Odds are, the next day, this will not happen, and the CC will end Absorb at the correct time.

AND, one will be checking SGs with the Hydrometer. If the battery is under charging, one can decrease the EA setting in the CC, and the average Absorb will be extended.

If one has the ability to measure the battery charging current, so much the better, as this allows one to watch the rate-of-change in battery charging current, and the CC output current, allowing one to get a better starting idea of where the CC EA setting should be.

On smaller systems, there is nothing wrong with just using Absorb Time, by setting the CC EA to 0.

Just wanted to add the idea, that there is a fairly easy way to set and use CC EA without the necessity of having all of the hardware required for the OB system to use Shunt EA.

Batteries do a good job on integrating charging from day-to-day. Nothing has to be perfect, and on systems with DODs that vary considerably one day to the next, CC EA is often better than having a fixed time, which can often be fairly wrong.

Just trying to be clear, based on 8.5 years of CC EA use, and 1.5 years of Shunt EA use. FWIW, opinions, Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
Vic
OutBack Czar
 
Posts: 979
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:56 pm
Location: San Joajuin County, CA

Re: Getting started.

Postby larrywa on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:34 pm

Vic wrote:Looks like eenquist does not have a large system. So, the odds are that there are no large-ish loads on the system.

Using Shunt EA, IMO, is the best way to end Absorb, but eenquist is not in a position to use such a system, at this moment.

Regarding CC EA with Flooded batteries, one adds the DC component of the steady-state loads on the inverter (including the inverter itself) to the estimated proper battery current Finishing Current -- usually 1 - 3% of 20 hour Capacity. 2% is not a bad place to start.

So, even with varying loads on the inverter, as long as these loads cycle on, and off every 10 or so minutes, this is NO PROBLEM for CC EA, as when the loads are on the system, when the CC wants to end Absorb, as long as the load cycles off in a few minutes, no real problem. The Absorb may be extended by a few minutes on one day. Odds are, the next day, this will not happen, and the CC will end Absorb at the correct time.

AND, one will be checking SGs with the Hydrometer. If the battery is under charging, one can decrease the EA setting in the CC, and the average Absorb will be extended.

If one has the ability to measure the battery charging current, so much the better, as this allows one to watch the rate-of-change in battery charging current, and the CC output current, allowing one to get a better starting idea of where the CC EA setting should be.

On smaller systems, there is nothing wrong with just using Absorb Time, by setting the CC EA to 0.

Just wanted to add the idea, that there is a fairly easy way to set and use CC EA without the necessity of having all of the hardware required for the OB system to use Shunt EA.

Batteries do a good job on integrating charging from day-to-day. Nothing has to be perfect, and on systems with DODs that vary considerably one day to the next, CC EA is often better than having a fixed time, which can often be fairly wrong.

Just trying to be clear, based on 8.5 years of CC EA use, and 1.5 years of Shunt EA use. FWIW, opinions, Vic

All makes sense to me. Thanks Vic.

One thing I cannot find anything in the books is regarding the end amperes. Can you tell me the logic in conjunction with the timer.

If end amperes current parameter is set does it
- substitute for the timer,
- logically And with the timer (both need be true), or
- logically OR with the timer function (whichever comes first).
larrywa
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:25 am
My RE system: FlexPower Two
2 x GVFX3648s,
2 x FM80s,
FNDC w/3 shunts,
Mate3 v3.015.005 (works excellent!)
Hub 10.3,
PV:1000W east@45, 600W west@45, 2400W south@19 deg.
Battery:48v @ 130Ahr Crown batteries, deep cycle <$380 for 6.25kWh

ISY994i HA, Insteon, X10, Philips Hue, MiLight bulbs & RGBW strips
WebControl 8 as weather station stuffing
ISY994 variables via REST interface

Raspberry Pi3 x 2, Pi1 B+

Re: Getting started.

Postby Vic on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:13 pm

larrywa wrote: .... All makes sense to me. Thanks Vic.

One thing I cannot find anything in the books is regarding the end amperes. Can you tell me the logic in conjunction with the timer.

If end amperes current parameter is set does it
- substitute for the timer,
- logically And with the timer (both need be true), or
- logically OR with the timer function (whichever comes first).


Hi Larrywa,

On the OB MX-60, and the MN Classic, the Logic for the Timer vs EA setting is an OR. Whichever gets satisfied first will cause the Absorb to end. Have never used an FM CC.

Usually set the Timer for a L O N G time -- here, in excess of six hours, and for the batteries used, the correct value of EA is about 0.93% of 20 hour Capacity. For a given battery, the exact EA setting will depend upon the Vabs, as well. Higher Absorb voltages would require a higher EA setting than that same battery would, using a lower Vabs.

FWIW, Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
Vic
OutBack Czar
 
Posts: 979
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:56 pm
Location: San Joajuin County, CA

Re: Getting started.

Postby larrywa on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:25 pm

Vic wrote:Hi Larrywa,

On the OB MX-60, and the MN Classic, the Logic for the Timer vs EA setting is an OR. Whichever gets satisfied first will cause the Absorb to end. Have never used an FM CC.

Usually set the Timer for a L O N G time -- here, in excess of six hours, and for the batteries used, the correct value of EA is about 0.93% of 20 hour Capacity. For a given battery, the exact EA setting will depend upon the Vabs, as well. Higher Absorb voltages would require a higher EA setting than that same battery would, using a lower Vabs.

FWIW, Vic

I was hoping you would say that.... so for the OP the End Amps would be completely safe because

The timer would act a failsafe parameter with the End Amps acting as a more efficient sell feature.
OR logic would work even with fluctuating loads. The extra non-battery load could cause the End Amps function to fail or not bother it, since the EA would be a minimum requirement so momentary load drops would get recognised as if it were just battery load sensing.

Brilliant! Sounds like a plan to me.
larrywa
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:25 am
My RE system: FlexPower Two
2 x GVFX3648s,
2 x FM80s,
FNDC w/3 shunts,
Mate3 v3.015.005 (works excellent!)
Hub 10.3,
PV:1000W east@45, 600W west@45, 2400W south@19 deg.
Battery:48v @ 130Ahr Crown batteries, deep cycle <$380 for 6.25kWh

ISY994i HA, Insteon, X10, Philips Hue, MiLight bulbs & RGBW strips
WebControl 8 as weather station stuffing
ISY994 variables via REST interface

Raspberry Pi3 x 2, Pi1 B+


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