Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby blackswan555 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:49 am

The alternator is a 2 pole 4 wire so basically 2 sets of 110v coils normally wired in series 1 > 2 >3 >4 for 110v there is a centre tap for neutral (off 2 or 3), for 230v you tap at the end`s (1 & 4) Depending on voltage regulator ( which I would presume yours is looking for 110v) you also usually have to move it`s connections, I would think they have rewired the coils in parallel to give you 110v with the full output,
By the sound of it when the last board was installed, The fitter has either connected it in the wrong place or configured it to be looking for 230v instead of 110v.

Have a good one
Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby Dave P on Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:02 am

Tim:

I have gone through the owners manual and nothing in it has anything to do with " wiring for 120 V only " This has to be a practice that the company I purchased the generator from does with customers that are "off grid" and has no use for the higher voltage of 240 v. I do know that when I first talked with them about purchasing from them I was asked this question.
As far as the "cool down " process, there is none. Here is what the manual says. " Automatic stopping" "An automatic transfer switch (ATS) connected to controller leads 3 and 4 operates as follows" 1. The ATS disconnects the load from the generator set. 2. If the ATS is equipped with an engine shutdown time delay, the generator set continues to run for a preset engine cooldown time. NOTE:::: "There is no engine cooldown time delay on the ADC-RES controller". Now, the unit I have is a 8.5kw RES, on the front cover of the manual it says, CONTROLLER::: ADVANCED DIGITAL CONTROLLERADC-RES. I guess by reading this, apparently Kohler makes some models that do have cooldown, but it looks like this one does not. Thanks for all of your valuable time and effort. Dave
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby blackswan555 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:26 am

Lower right 4 wire diagram, It may not be in the manual but your gen shop obviously knows it :grin:

No problem on the built in cool down ,Better not to have it and program your own , It`s just if you do have it , It causes another problem,

Have a good one
Tim
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My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby Dave P on Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:47 pm

Tim: Nothing in my manual says anything about configuring the generator for the 120 V only option. This is one of the first questions that I can remember upon purchasing the generator.
The Controller: The ADC-RES (advanced digital control) ( residential ) When I refer to the control board I am referring to the forementioned.
Automatic Stopping:: With the generator set master switch in the Auto position, this has a three position option. Left is RUN. This is how I would start the generator outside. MIDDLE is off/reset. To the RIGHT is AUTO.This is where the AUX and mate would start the generator via leads 3 and 4. open the contact across engine start leads 3 and 4 to signal the generator to stop. An automatic transfer switch (ATS) connected to the controller leads 3 and 4 operates as follows.

1. The ATS disconnects the load from the generator set.
2. If the ATS is equipped with and engine cooldown time delay,the generator set continues to run for a preset engine cooldown time.
Note**** There is no engine cooldown time delay on the ADC-RES. ( this is the one I have)
3. The ATS opens the connection between controller leads 3 and 4. The generator set shuts down. The controller enters standby mode and displays engine runtime hours.

As for "who installed the controll board?" The company I purchased from comes and does it. Being as I have said in the past, I DID NOT have this voltage spike when the original controller and the second controller was in place. This happened when the third controller was installed. I am about ready to go and talk to the owner of the company regarding this issue. Without the relay and the auto start being connected I saw 190 + volts. Since the relay I am consistantly seeing voltage in the 140's. The inverter is rated for 150v, or so the tag would tell you.The generator when running not only powers my home, it is also powering my garage, as long as I have the manual transfer switch upward (kohler generator) in the garage. It is feeding my garage as well. If the relay that is in the house located by the Mate momentarily blocks the higher voltage, I still am still seeing the voltage of 140 +. In my garage, not going through any relay, I am still probably seeing the 190 + volts. Not good if I have some sensitive items plugged into an outlet this is where I am concerned, as long as everything in the house. The relay makes me feel a little better though. There you have it Tim, as best I know it. Dave P
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby Dave P on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:50 pm

Tim: A simple thank you doesn't seem like enough for all that you have done for me and for others. But, for now that is all I have, "THANK YOU!!!!!!! I called Outback tech support of Friday, they gave me an RMA for returning my Mate to get the lastest firmware put into it. I will be sending it out on Tuesday. I guess their policy is once they get it, someone gets right on the problem, fixes and retturns as soon as possible. My only cost is the shipping from me to Outback. They also pay the freight back to me. WOW, can't be any more fair than that. Once I get the Mate returned to me I will give you a current update on how things are working.

I almost forgot, would you mind giving me some advice on what I should do with the voltage spike condition that I am getting. I think I said in an earlier post that I was considering making an appointment with the owner of the company and explain to him as to what is actually is ging on. I still go back to the original two control boards, Neither one of them ever did what this third one is doing. Could it be wired incorrectly, I know the day the company came is was a rather cold day, so possibly someone in a hurry could very possibly make a mistake.

Dave P.
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby blackswan555 on Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:54 am

I would suggest the chat with you gen company about your spike, I "think" the last board is incorrect in some way,
As for them saying " all gens spike" as I said before , they may ripple, but up to 190v + is not a ripple,
In the gen alternator manual it states
Voltage regulation, no-load to full-load RMS ±1.5%
so that gives an Idea of the difference between their "spike" and an allowable ripple.

Have a good one
Tim

ps Thanks for the Thanks :grin: It makes it all worth while :grin:
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby Dave P on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:34 pm

Tim:

Well, this will be the last post from me for a while. I will be sending out the Mate tomorrow for its journey to Arlington WA. I will return and let you know how it has turned out. As for the generator issue, I will be discussing this with the owner of the company. I feel with what I already knew and the new information you have supplied to me, I have more than enough to support my case. I have spoke with three other electricians, along with yourself, all are in agreement that this should not be happening. As I said before, I can't thank you enough for everything. It also has been a pleasure talking with you and the others that have jumped in on occassion. I have learned so much by this forum, I will be checking other information on different subjects to learn more. Be safe my friend, Thanks. Dave P in good ole Vermont, US of A.
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby Dave P on Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:17 pm

Hi Tim: Well I have the Mate back and all programmed, working like a champ. I did have a question when it came back because it was sent with an addendum. I called Outback and left a question in the tech support mailbox. After I waited about 20 minutes I decided to leave a message to have them call me back. I left a detailed message and phone numbers. This was last Tuesday. I still have not heard anything from them. Disappointed, you might say that.

I have had a little different time with the generator company. Fianlly I convinced them to come up and take a look for themselves. Right from the first call to them after the third board was installed, I explained to them I was getting 190 plus vac. I emailed the owner and did a copy and paste of all the posts. Needless to say I was not very happy. Yesterday they happen to be at a neighbors house and while they were in the area they came up. Or at least that is my take on it. The tech came into the house, set up his fluke meter on the outlet before it even gets to the invertor. I turned the generator off, his fluke recorded a voltage of 201.2 vac. Needless to say his chin dropped to his knees. Now do you believe me I said. He had me set it up again and the same thing was recorded. To make a long story short, Kohler had been recieving trouble reports of a voltage spike for about the last month. Hmmmm, same time frame of the installation of the third board. It seems that Kohler had another problem with the boards and did a software fix to the boards. In doing so they put a voltage spike into the same board they were attempting to fix. The spike shows up on the auto side of the board. Isn't that special. Here is the fix to it. The generator has a three position switch. The center is "OFF" to the left is "RUN" this is where you would put the switch to start it at the generator itself. To the right is "AUTO" This auto position is where I would start it from the house, or by using the Mate. Instead of the two wire start leads from the relay in the house going to the auto side, the tech moved them to the run side. When the Mate reaches its parameters it will start the generator regardless if it is wired to the auto, where it should be, or to the run side. In essance, the auto side now does not even exist. That is the way Kohler is solving this problem. I can still start the generator from the generator itself because the three position swithch is in the middle position and not in the auto. I have to move the switch to the auto to see the hours on generator. I have to put it back to the middle position so it will work properly now. At this point Kohler might as well build new generators without even considering using the auto portion. All's well that ends well. Tim, as I have said before, I can't thank you enough for all your time and effort, you certainly have made a difference to me, not to even mention how much I have learned from you through these posts. THANK YOU AGAIN!! The folks at outback, thank you too, for assisting me in getting the mate firmware upgraded. Thank you all so much. Vermont off grid, Dave Patterson
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Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby blackswan555 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:11 am

Happy you got it sorted :grin:
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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My RE system: Other peoples, VFX "E" versions, FLA`s, Generators.

Re: Auto Gen start inconsistantly starts and doesnt starts

Postby Dave P on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 pm

I have encountered a problem with the auto start. Since I sent the mate in and had the software upgraded to 4.1.6 everthing has been working just fine. Recently though when the 2min timer is reached, the LED and fan come on in the Inverter as they have from the start, the gen sometimes does not start. I can go into the mate and shut the fan and LED off by hitting MAN-OFF. Boot the mate, setting it now to Auto-off, and it may or may not start. If I go into the mate itself and try to start by changing from Auto-off to MAN-on this will start sometimes and then it won't. I have the relay in place since the beginning but I am thinking the relay will either work or it won't. I am leaning toward a mate issue. Any ideas anyone??
Dave P
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:38 pm
My RE system: 12 Panels, FX Series Inverter/Charger, MX60 MPPT Controller, Mate Sys Controller, Kohler 8.5 KW Propane Generator

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