Temporarily turn off selling

Discussion about adding energy storage to grid-dependent inverters using OutBack Power technology
Post Reply
Gamebrewer
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm
My RE system: Gs8048. Grid tied with battery backup and solar panels with blue frog microinverters. Batteries are 4 Outback 200PLR. Panels are silfab 310. Bluefrogs are YC600. 22 300w panels go into sub panel connected to radian. 20 300w panels feed main service panel.

Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Gamebrewer » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:15 am

I have a radian GS8048 that the installer configured for ac coupling. I don’t have my Netmeter yet so I cant sell back power. How do I need to change my configuration to temporarily turn off selling power back so I can use my system for now? Thanks!

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:48 am

If the entire array is AC coupled you can disable selling power by turning off the AC breaker that feeds the micro-inverters.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Gamebrewer
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm
My RE system: Gs8048. Grid tied with battery backup and solar panels with blue frog microinverters. Batteries are 4 Outback 200PLR. Panels are silfab 310. Bluefrogs are YC600. 22 300w panels go into sub panel connected to radian. 20 300w panels feed main service panel.

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Gamebrewer » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:25 pm

Thanks Kurt. Sounds like I need to describe situation better

I have grid power going to the radian that feeds a sub panel of loads. The sub panel is also fed from the microinverters on the panels. If there is more power going to the sub panel from the microinverters than the load needs the excess power it fed back to the grid by the radian. I don’t want the excess power to be fed back to the grid. It seems like I should be able to configure the radian to not sell that back.

Any thoughts. Thanks!

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Mike Curran » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:40 pm

What about setting the Radian's AC input mode to "generator"? That would prevent it from selling but I'm not sure what drawbacks it might have...
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:01 pm

Gamebrewer wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:25 pm
The sub panel is also fed from the microinverters on the panels.
Turn off the breaker in the sub-panel that goes to the Micro-Inverters. They cannot sell if there isn't an AC source to sync to.
Mike Curran wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:40 pm
What about setting the Radian's AC input mode to "generator"? That would prevent it from selling
When AC coupled the Radian isn't really selling anything. The micro-inverters are doing the selling. When connected to the Grid the AC input and AC output on the Radian is common. The Radian cannot tell the power that is provided to the output panel by the AC coupled array to NOT flow back to the input.

The only other option would be to drop the grid at the Radian input and operate as an Island. When islanded the Radian can frequency shift to reduce the AC coupled array power output to a level that is acceptable to the battery bank. That is about all the control the Radian has over the other inverter system.

Keep in mind the Radian only sells excess power that comes in on the DC bus. Since PV is AC coupled nothing is directly feeding the DC bus so there is nothing for the Radian to sell. If PV, Wind, or Hydro were DC coupled to the system that would be a different story.

Cheers,

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Mike Curran » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Thanks for that, Kurt. =D> Always good to get the right answer from an OB expert. Glad you chimed in.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

Gamebrewer
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm
My RE system: Gs8048. Grid tied with battery backup and solar panels with blue frog microinverters. Batteries are 4 Outback 200PLR. Panels are silfab 310. Bluefrogs are YC600. 22 300w panels go into sub panel connected to radian. 20 300w panels feed main service panel.

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Gamebrewer » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:44 pm

That helps so much. My installer has been useless. Thanks for taking the time to help us. Jeff

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:31 am

Happy to help. Sorry to hear about the installer. When you have time feel free to post your system details like PV array with # of modules and size, and battery bank with make/model and number of batteries. This is good info to include in your user profile. Others will use that info to help quickly answer questions you might have.

Cheers,

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Gamebrewer
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm
My RE system: Gs8048. Grid tied with battery backup and solar panels with blue frog microinverters. Batteries are 4 Outback 200PLR. Panels are silfab 310. Bluefrogs are YC600. 22 300w panels go into sub panel connected to radian. 20 300w panels feed main service panel.

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Gamebrewer » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:12 am

I’ll do that. I had a thought. If the ac input is a pass thru will my batteries charge from the panels if I have a power outage?

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:37 am

The battery can charge if the loads on the critical load panel are less than the power output from the AC coupled PV array. I haven't looked at the spec in a long time but I think your PV array has to push less than 3000W back through the GS4048A Inverter to ensure the battery charger circuit doesn't get fried. How big is your PV array?

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Gamebrewer
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm
My RE system: Gs8048. Grid tied with battery backup and solar panels with blue frog microinverters. Batteries are 4 Outback 200PLR. Panels are silfab 310. Bluefrogs are YC600. 22 300w panels go into sub panel connected to radian. 20 300w panels feed main service panel.

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Gamebrewer » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:38 am

There are 22 300w panels going to the radian. That sounds like it could be a problem.... I haven’t had time to upload my configuration to my description.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Mike Curran » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:12 am

This AC coupling app note says up to 6000 watts can be connected: https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/tr ... 0e96067769
Screenshot_20191215-120147.jpg
But, this note was written for OB's remote operated circuit breaker (ROCB) AC coupling solution.
Bigger but :smile: :

OB Tech support told me this:
Screenshot_20191215-120737.jpg
And this was written for the newer frequency- shifting acc approach with a Skybox. Not sure if it applies for you.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:47 am

Mike Curran wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:12 am
This AC coupling app note says up to 6000 watts can be connected
Gamebrewer has the 1/2 size GS4048A Radian so it can only handle 1/2 of the GS8048A rating (3kW vs 6kW). AC coupled or not the Radian's charging circuit can only handle so much power. For AC coupled array sizing I would shoot for 80% of the inverter's charger rating.

For this setup, I would only AC couple 10 panels. The rest should be tied into the AC input panel side of the system.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Gamebrewer
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm
My RE system: Gs8048. Grid tied with battery backup and solar panels with blue frog microinverters. Batteries are 4 Outback 200PLR. Panels are silfab 310. Bluefrogs are YC600. 22 300w panels go into sub panel connected to radian. 20 300w panels feed main service panel.

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by Gamebrewer » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:56 pm

I got very lucky and they originally ordered the 4048 but realized the error and installed the 8048. They just never updated my paperwork. I’m going to update my system description to fix that.

User avatar
IanMcCluskey
OutBack Product Management
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:16 pm

Re: Temporarily turn off selling

Post by IanMcCluskey » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:36 am

Moving this to the new AC Coupling forum, and adding a few sizing examples for reference.

We warranty up to 75% of the Radian(s) rating in AC Coupled inverter output.

Example 1 - GS4048A with twelve 250W micro inverters, or 3,000 W total
Example 2 - GS8048A with 1 6,000W grid dependent string inverter
Example 3 - Four GS8048A with three 7,600 W grid dependent inverters, or 22,800 W total
Ian McCluskey
Product Manager


Alpha Technologies Inc. / OutBack Power Technologies
3767 Alpha Way Bellingham WA 98226 USA
http://www.alpha.com

Post Reply