Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

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Mike Curran
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Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Mike Curran » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:08 am

I've set up my Skybox with the intention of forcing it to connect to grid in the daytime, by setting grid pricing much lower than my own Levelized Cost Of Energy, using the time of use function. My thinking is that this should prevent battery use in the daytime when there's PV input, but also allow selling then, while minimizing grid use at night when my Skybox (for so far undetermined reasons) seems to use excessive amounts of grid power.

From 0900 to 1800 grid price is set at $0.06/kwh, while my programmed LCOE is $0.08. My Cost of Energy/kwh (flat rate) is set for $0.15/kwh, which should be what the Skybox uses to decide whether to use grid outside the defined TOU period.

What I'm observing with these settings is that the Skybox is still using my battery in the daytime when I thought this mode should only be using the grid then. See screenshot below. Note it's raining and cloudy here now so not much solar input now, :sad:, but there is an AC coupled PV array on the load side of the Skybox which is supplementing the small (~100 watts) load there.

What am I missing here?
Screenshot_20200328-110331.jpg
Thanks for any thoughts on this. - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

pss
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Posts: 484
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:40 am
My RE system: 8330 watts in three strings, Flexmax 60 x 3, Radian 8048A, GSLC load center, Mate 3S, Hub 10.3, FN-DC and 900 Amp, 48V Trojan T105-RE battery bank.

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by pss » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:02 am

Mike:

My post is similar (from last night). On Tuesday and Friday of this week I found my system still using grid instead of batteries when time of use rates were high. I think there is a new software glitch somewhere.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Mike Curran » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:47 pm

Thanks pss - I just set this up yesterday and didn't make the connection to your post. Good to know we're not alone. - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

pss
Forum Guru
Posts: 484
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:40 am
My RE system: 8330 watts in three strings, Flexmax 60 x 3, Radian 8048A, GSLC load center, Mate 3S, Hub 10.3, FN-DC and 900 Amp, 48V Trojan T105-RE battery bank.

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by pss » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:53 pm

Mike,
We ARE alone, so far.
I haven't changed my settings in months either.

fcwlp
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Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by fcwlp » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:00 pm

pss wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:53 pm
Mike,
We ARE alone, so far.
I haven't changed my settings in months either.
Mike & pss I think you can chalk this one up to some strange coincidence. The logic/software on the SkyBox is substantially different than the Radian & Mate3s. I have not seen an issue with the two grid-tied Radians I monitor, but I use the FLEXtime method with GridZero or Mini-Grid.

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Sat May 02, 2020 5:58 pm

I recently ran a test on my Skybox and got the opposite result that the Skybox did not go into battery mode.
My settingss;
Maximum independence.
TOU cost of grid energy $.35 from 3PM to 7PM
Battery at 99% SOC
Cost of battery energy $.20
Time of Use Rates Enabled
I did read in the the release notes for 1.1.15 that peak shaving is not fully supported at this time. Is that an explanation for why I can't run off batteries for five or six hours a day. It is simple functionality that a Tesla Powerwall and an ARK hybrid inverter can do and that is the market niche that I thought this product was developed for.
Last edited by Ampster on Sat May 02, 2020 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Mike Curran » Sat May 02, 2020 7:20 pm

Ampster - I'm not using max independence so can't comment on your issue. However...

Since making the OP, I learned from OB Tech support that TOU parameters must be programmed at the Skybox local display, even though Optics appears to allow this functionality. Also, the first TOU rate block (1of 32) must always start at 12:00 am.

I was making both these mistakes - trying to program TOU in Optics, and not starting them at midnight. Once I got this squared away, TOU is working as I had expected it to. In my case, I'm using it to force battery use at night when there's no PV, because when there's no sun my system uses 300 watts of grid power over normal 150 watt idle power, and I haven't been able to determine the cause.

It is a bit disappointing that you can't use Optics to program them. I understand this is a bug that will be fixed in some future firmware update.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Sat May 02, 2020 7:59 pm

Thanks I will try that. I had a complicated schedule that I programmed from the web interface and it never worked.

I just input a simple one directly on the screen on the unit. Interestingly when I went to check it on the web interface it said "In Use" and I could not access it. It is scheduled to start in the morning and we shall see how it works .
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Sun May 03, 2020 11:02 am

I set it for 10:00 AM from the panel on the Skybox last night and at 11AM today it still does not go to batteries.
The start date defaulted to 1/1/16 and I used daily even though this is a weekend. I will try some other variations like weekday and 1/1/2020 and see what happens tomorrow. If that doesn't work I will call support. I might try a system reboot as well.

I am using Max Independence setting because the manual says TOU doesn't work for the other settings. It says it is disabled in Max Independence but the enable box works.
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Mike Curran » Sun May 03, 2020 2:23 pm

I am using Max Independence setting because the manual says TOU doesn't work for the other settings. It says it is disabled in Max Independence but the enable box works.
I don't see that in the manual, actually it says "disabled by default", but I think you can still use it if you program in the times and rates you want to use. I'm using net metering with backup. Here's what the manual says about that:
Screenshot_20200503-170804_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
Note same comment about disabled by default.

What is your first block programmed for? Here's mine:
20200503_172106.jpg
It must have a start time of midnight, else you get unexpected results. My 2nd rate block starts at 0730 with grid rate $0.06/kwh (that forces my system to use grid starting at 0730). My 3rd and last block starts at 1930, rate = $0.15/kwh, which forces battery use at night. Nothing changes at midnight but without that midnight setting, TOU is unpredictable per OB tech support.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Tue May 05, 2020 2:48 pm

I tried that and gave it another day after rebooting my inverter and got nothing. Maybe I will try another AC profile to see if it works on one of those. I will take pictures of my screens and post here. I want to have the documentation for Outback if I have to call them.
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Wed May 06, 2020 1:35 pm

Still no change after changing to Self Consumption. I did notice that the Enable TOU button is light green and you can't change it but it says they are enabled.
I will change to non export and see if that does anything. I probably need to wait for a day cycle to complete.
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Fri May 08, 2020 2:54 pm

Nothing new to report. From rereading this thread I see you are using AC Coupling also. I wonder if that is having any impact?
I filed a Technical Support Case and don't want to change my settings until the weekend in case they want to look at my Opticsre.
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Mike Curran » Fri May 08, 2020 4:05 pm

A couple of posts earlier, you said
I tried that and gave it another day after rebooting my inverter and got nothing
Does that mean you tried setting the first TOU block to start at midnight? I only mention (again) because that must be set or TOU will never work properly, no matter the operating mode.

I would add, with regard to self-consumption, TOU does not apply.
20200508_190913.jpg
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Fri May 08, 2020 7:41 pm

Yes, per the attached. I will try other AC modes.
Attachments
20200508_193820.jpg
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Ampster
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 5.7K solar system with Solaredge inverter. Heat pump water heater.
Using a reconfigured Nissan Leaf pack to power a Skybox which is used for load shifting and backup.
Location: Sonoma, Northern California

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Ampster » Wed May 13, 2020 9:59 pm

I did finally file a support case and as I suspected it was something simple that I had overlooked, When I tried to setup the battery on the web interface I did not scroll down to the custom setting so I just left it at none. That was all it took for the TOU setting to work. When I set they battery type to Custom the battery immediatly began discharging because I made that change when the grid cost was high. Later it went back to the grid at the time the grid cost was lower and began charging the battery. Interestingly the drop down box on Opticsre is longer and the Custom setting is visible so if I had used Opticsre for that setting I would have seen the custom setting.

The tech explained to me that TOU only works in Net Metering with Backup because there is no benefit to TOU when in other modes because the default behavior in these modes is to discharge the battery to offset grid use. I am considering making a significant increase in my battery pack so that might be something I want to try when that happens. I found a reliable source on Alibaba and can get 28 kWh delived to my doorstep for less than $125 per kWhr. That is by Sea which will take 30 to 40 days. Air was out of the question because there are so few flights because of C19 restrictions that there is no extra cargo room in the bellys of passenger planes.
Drive Tesla Model X and Model 3 which are charged at Super Off Peak rates.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1524
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 repl'd MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied, no longer AC- coupled

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Time of use rates still using battery when grid price is low

Post by Mike Curran » Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm

Glad to hear you've got it figured out. OB Tech support rocks!
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

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