Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Discussion about the OutBack Energy Cell Batteries
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elbowwilham
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Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by elbowwilham » Sat May 14, 2016 11:27 am

I need to buy batteries for my off grid house. My solar dealer just started carrying the Energy Cell Nano Carbon. I can go with these or just a normal 6v flooded battery. The specs on the flooded are for 1200 cycles, but the Energy Cell claims 7000. The up-front cost of the EC is a little more, but if I even get half the cycles they claim it will end up costing way less in the long run.

Is the Outback battery really superior to a normal flooded lead acid battery in a Solar Off Grid senario?

Vic
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Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by Vic » Sat May 14, 2016 12:26 pm

Hello elbow..,

Welcome to this Forum.

Well, as was stated elsewhere, the NC200 has a 20-Hour Capacity of about 178 Ah. L-16s vary from about 375 Ah to about 420, or so. Therefore, some would say that these batteries are not directly comparable, especially in an Off-Grid application (assume that this is your situation).

AND, 1200 Rated cycles seems amazingly low for most any L-16 Flooded battery.

You are raising a good question, here, about the actual expected number of cycles, and just how these cycles are Rated.

One life-shortening mechanism of AGM batteries, is the consumption/exhaustion of the Recombining Catalyst. And, others are the result of needing to run parallel strings of batteries. AGM batteries are low impedance batteries, in general, so poor current sharing is more pronounced with parallel AGM strings. One can often get away with parallel strings (within reason), when they are charged from the Grid, as lagging batteries will eventually become fully-charged. But for Renewable Energy (RE), daily-cycling applications (ie, off grid), the laggards would seldom become fully-charged from PVs alone - generally.

The "C" battery string here are Surrette L-16s, and are in their eleventh year. These batteries are not heavily-cycled, but one should expect about five years minimum from good quality L-16 in off-grid use, if well-maintained, and not beaten to death.

As you know, Solar system design really flows from one's loads. Would avoid parallel battery strings. Single strings are really best, especially in off grid systems. Determine your loads, when they occur, and the peak demands on the system. Determine the number of days of autonomy that you want, etc, and you can then size the battery bank and know the best system DC voltage ...

Believe that you have experience sizing PV/battery powered comm systems (if my guess is correct), so most/all of this is known to you.

FWIW, Hope to be able to read just how the rated number of cycles is determined on the OB NC batteries. FWIW, Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.

Vic
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Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by Vic » Mon May 16, 2016 11:20 am

BUMP.

Outback Power, can you please comment just how the 7,000 Cycle number is arrived at, for PSOC use?

It is generally considered that most AGM batteries would have probably about half the number of Rated Cycles that would similar quality Flooded batteries of similar Capacity, when each battery type is well monitored and maintained, and not abused (realize that FLAs and AGMs are not really directly comparable).

TIA for specs/methodology used to measure this Cycle data. Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.

Vic
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Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by Vic » Tue May 17, 2016 1:02 pm

BUMP, Thanks OB, for detailed specs on how the number of Cycles is measured. Thanks ! Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.

elbowwilham
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Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by elbowwilham » Tue May 17, 2016 4:31 pm

I need to buy these batteries soon. Any comments from OB?

billi
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My RE system: 4000 watt PV array , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery @ C5 ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1000 watt windturbine AC-coupled , 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator
Location: ireland

Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by billi » Thu May 19, 2016 7:29 am

... Hmm , i thought that the data sheet is quite clear and shows 7000 cycle @ 10% DOD and 3000 @50% DOD

elbowwilham
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Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by elbowwilham » Thu May 19, 2016 10:53 am

Yes, it is clear. I am just wondering if these are recommended for Off-Grid houses?
Or is the only issue that I have to run 2 parallel banks to equal the same Wattages as the L16?

billi
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Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:25 pm
My RE system: 4000 watt PV array , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery @ C5 ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1000 watt windturbine AC-coupled , 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator
Location: ireland

Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by billi » Thu May 19, 2016 11:23 am

To be honest , i would not like both of them

My forklift batteries 1600 ah @24 Volt are now getting 13 years old and cost new about $3000 here in Europe (1500 cycles to 80% DoD)

You say
The specs on the flooded are for 1200 cycles, but the Energy Cell claims 7000.
so have a close look at the graphs of each , both numbers seem odd to me and what make is the L16 ?

Billi

elbowwilham
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Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by elbowwilham » Thu May 19, 2016 11:26 am

Wish I could find fork lift batteries, but I have not been able to in my area (Hawaii).

The L16 is made by Deka
http://www.civicsolar.com/product/mk-8l ... et-battery

billi
Forum Guru
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:25 pm
My RE system: 4000 watt PV array , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery @ C5 ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1000 watt windturbine AC-coupled , 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator
Location: ireland

Re: Outback energy cell nc200 vs. L16

Post by billi » Thu May 19, 2016 12:20 pm

OK , i see , you poor lad are in rainy cold , windless Hawaii and me in warm and sunny Ireland ( good surf here as well :) ) (just kidding )
Anyway , when i started i even considered to get Hub solar ones shipped from USA to Europe http://www.hupsolar.com/advantages-of-H ... ast-longer , ( hope that link is allowed )


But if that outback battery does 3000 @50% DOD cycles ( i doubt that.... , than it sounds a good one ) compared to the 800 cycles @50% DOD of the deka


But anyway , with your Sun in Hawaii and possibly some wind , i would design my setup , that it can work with not much deep cycling , and invest carefully in more generation and try to avoid overpriced batteries

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