Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

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pedromuniz
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Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by pedromuniz » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:40 pm

Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

I have a small off-grid system composed of 1x GS8048A, 1x FLEXmax80, 1x PV array, 1x 525Ah battery, set inside a 20-foot ship container. The system is all shut-down while not in use, and I have to open it to charge the batteries 2 times a month. Until last time no problems whatsoever...
Last week after a month of not using the system, I boot up the whole system--GS8048A, no errors or warnings until I tried to run the 230V/2hp hydraulic pump used to extend open the solar arrays.
The sequence to get the error is the same:
Power the system GS8048A - no events (faults or warnings);
Power FLEXmax80 - no events (faults or warnings);
Turn on the 120V loads (lights, fan, CB radio) - no events (faults or warnings);
However, when I turn on the 230V hydraulic pump the inverter stops instantaneously - with red colored LED on MATE3 and the message "Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault" when I press the soft key Detail on MATE3 nothing additional is added to the message besides Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault.

I acknowledge the message, power the inverter off, then powering it on again, bring everything up again. Once I turn the that pump againÔÇöBANG!ÔÇöthe same error happens and the inverter crashes. There are no spikes, sparks, pop sound. I can hear the pump motor to on for a tenth of a second before the inverter crashes. It seems to me that the problem is caused when the 230V load is turned on--pretty obvious...

My troubleshooting--WITOUT SUCCESS--was: connected the pump in a normal 230V electrical power source outside the system, and verified the pump to operate normally; replaced the 525Ah battery with a brand new one to see if the battery was below correct voltage; and, as per the manual, looked for loose terminals in the GS load center, which looked tight to me...

Would anyone be able to tell what could be the problem?
Many thanks for your assistance!

Pedro

Pedro Muniz
MBS Business Solutions Pte. Ltd.
Tel +65 9185 6575
pmuniz@mbscorporation.com
Pedro Muniz
MBS Business Solutions Pte. Ltd.
Tel +65 9185 6575
pmuniz@mbscorporation.com

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Kurt Lundquist
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:34 am

Do you have a GSLC?

If you are not using a GSLC how do you have the battery connections wired to the inverter. Post a pic if you can.

The inverter has two DC positive and two DC negative terminals. If the resistance on the connections is unbalanced you will get the Loose DC Negative error. Check to make sure both the ribbon cables on the power modules are fully seated.

Per your other post http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewt ... 076#p49076 it sounds like this is a mobile application. The Radian inverter was not designed for mobile applications. I suggest you consider adding vibration dampening material between the inverter and the container. You should also do a full torque check on all fittings anytime the system is moved. Don't forget to checkthe nuts on the control board stack in the inverter and the ribbon cable fittings.

You also mentioned Grid-Zero which tells me you are connecting this system to the grid. Do you have a method to control the neutral to ground bond?

If you make more of these power containers I suggest you consider using OutBack's FX line of inverters instead.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

pedromuniz
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by pedromuniz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:53 am

Hi Kurt,
Thank you very much for your help.
I attached a picture of the system here for your review.
at the moment the system is off-grid. But I (think) I have prepared the wiring to connect it to the grid. The reason why is because I cannot charge the battery with the amount of sun exposure I have.
Attachments
20160824_172458_resized.jpg
radian
20160824_170653_resized.jpg
radian
Pedro Muniz
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pmuniz@mbscorporation.com

sparksalot
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by sparksalot » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:20 am

Even with a new battery you must charge before adding such a large load. Original battery went low with sitting for the 1 month.
If you have 2 batteris now you may try connecting both in parallel for added amps, but charging battery(s) is best solution.

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Kurt Lundquist
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:27 am

Check torque on the nuts that I pointed out with the red arrows in the attached image.

The yellow arrow points to your neutral to ground bond location in the GSLC. I couldn't tell from you picture if the output AC panel had a bond present or not. Remember there should only be one neutral to ground bond in your system. To connect to the grid you will either have to use an isolation transformer or remove the bond in the GSLC. To remove the bond place the white stand off back on the bus bar. Once you disconnect from the grid you will need to have a bond in place in the container once again. If you use an isolation transformer you can leave the bond in place in the container even when connected to the grid.

Where is you PV input breaker?

-Kurt
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GSLC.png
Kurt Lundquist
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by sparksalot » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:15 am

By all means check the torque for any loose connection(s).
Also remember a under charged battery source will give the same Error as a loose connection fault...same symptoms.

pedromuniz
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by pedromuniz » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:32 am

Hi Kurt,
I am almost getting there. Sorry to be unfamiliar with the system. Answering to your questions, I made pictures of how the Neutral wires are bond in the system, and where my PV input breaker is.
1) I will check the torque of all the connectors nuts and bolts as per your recommendation.
2) I will charge the batteries before I test the system again. But I need to connect to the inverter to the grid to do so, as at the moment there is no way I can get enough sun to use the PV to charge them. I assume this will solve the "Loose DC Neg Terminals..." error.

If I am connecting this thing to the grid the way shown on the picture, will it work, or will I burn the system or kill someone? The source I will use here is AC 230V, 50Hz as shown.
Then can I just plug the thing as it is shown here?
Will I need to configure the system to 230V and 50Hz, or can I use the Mate3 wizard to configure it for me automatically?
Many thanks for your support!
Pedro
Attachments
PvInputBreaker.JPG
NeutralBond.JPG
Pedro Muniz
MBS Business Solutions Pte. Ltd.
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Kurt Lundquist
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Posts: 1447
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:29 am

pedromuniz wrote:2) I will charge the batteries before I test the system again. But I need to connect to the inverter to the grid to do so, as at the moment there is no way I can get enough sun to use the PV to charge them. I assume this will solve the "Loose DC Neg Terminals..." error.
I doubt the error is due to the battery state of charge. Usually it means there is a loose connection on the DC side of the system.
pedromuniz wrote:If I am connecting this thing to the grid the way shown on the picture, will it work, or will I burn the system or kill someone? The source I will use here is AC 230V, 50Hz as shown.
Is your AC source 115Vac line to neutral and 230Vac line to line? Most 230Vac 50Hz applications are based on two wire single phase power where you have one hot line and one neutral. The GS8048 is a 3 wire single phase product where you have two hot lines and one neutral (commonly known as Split Phase). If your AC source is two wire single phase it will not work. If it is 3 wire single phase it should work as long as the phase angle is 180┬░ out of phase. Your picture shows L1, L2 and G in the plug but it doesn't show the neutral wire. Considering this is a mobile application it is hard for me to safely advise you on the various methods for isolating neutral to ground bonds in the AC system. I suggest you consult with a local professional engineer.

Thanks,

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

pedromuniz
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by pedromuniz » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:37 pm

Dear Kurt,
You are absolutely correct. Yesterday we figured-it-out, 2-wired 230V 50Hz, just L1 230V and N legs. When I purchased this inverter last July, got some advice from your rep. in India, and he told me 8045 would work as is 120 and 240 AC input... But he seemed to forget that in Asia you need the GS7048a that has a 2-wire configuration. As a countermeasure, I ordered yesterday a custom made 8kVA transformer with input L1 240V, N legs @50Hz, and an output of L1 125 , L2, N 125V, L2 125V, N legs @60Hz.
I will tell you the outcome.
Thank you,
Pedro
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MBS Business Solutions Pte. Ltd.
Tel +65 9185 6575
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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by Phgnw8 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:33 pm

Hi Kurt, Pedro

Just to check how this was eventually resolved? I currently have the same problem on my GS7048E and have gone through similar steps to check DC terminals properly torqued, as per what I've read here and from outback support, no luck yet....

Ribbon cables look ok. One thing I've done - I've powered up only the left inverter on the GS7048, no issues, inverter powers my AC load ok. When I power the right inverter, error appears and inverter shuts off...

My AC load is just d house light points, fans , fridges, about 1.5kw total max load. My batteries are fully charged...

What can I be missing?

Regards
George

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by Jim20 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:42 pm

Hello, having the same problem. I isolated it to the outback side and not the house. Did you guys figure out a fix for this?
Living Off Grid is Awesome!

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by AZ-Condor » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:18 pm

With (2) 8kw Radian Inverters GS8048A GSLC powering the house, the system would crash (lights out for 5 seconds) The Mate3 was recording the following errors:
-Loose DC Negative Terminals Active Fault
-Out Voltage error
-HBX High Battery SOC Grid Drop
-In AC current too high
After many months of trouble shooting, the problem was a bad Power Module.
I isolated the power module, performed an ohms test, found the power module had an internal short.
When the suspect power module was disconnected, all the error messages & power crashes stopped.
Outback is shipping a replacement power module out.

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by jahshan » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:24 pm

I have the same issue they shipped me the power module it did work for about two weeks now I am getting the problem again especially when the utility company they have power outage or flickering it appears that when it happens any idea what is the solution?

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by stevenbowler » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:49 am

Same issue here, during yesterday’s hurricane system nicely switched over to my battery bank and kept us going for a day, with batteries getting recharged during the day, now showing this fault. Power-down-up etc no effect.

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by fcwlp » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:18 pm

stevenbowler wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:49 am
Same issue here, during yesterday’s hurricane system nicely switched over to my battery bank and kept us going for a day, with batteries getting recharged during the day, now showing this fault. Power-down-up etc no effect.
Have you checked the torque of the nuts shown in Kurt Lundquist's post above?

Make sure to shut the system down first following the procedure in the Radian Quick Start Guide and follow the correct procedure for startup.

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by stevenbowler » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:17 am

Thanks for the reply, I'll address soon as I get a chance. In mean time, have not had re-occurrence, perhaps unrelated but: switched over to grid zero, was running grid-tied at time of failure. Regards.

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Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by stevenbowler » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:23 pm

Was locked out of forum since Aug 10, 2020.

Torqued down all terminals per the above photo, all seems to be working, no re-occurence in over a week.

May be a coincidence, maybe not: lately have been running on GridZero, where I have never experienced the "loose DC terminals fault", did experience on mini-grid and grid-tie.

fcwlp
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I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Loose DC Neg Terminals GS-1 Active Fault GS8048

Post by fcwlp » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:39 pm

stevenbowler wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:23 pm
May be a coincidence, maybe not: lately have been running on GridZero, where I have never experienced the "loose DC terminals fault", did experience on mini-grid and grid-tie.
Thanks for the update. Both GridZero and Grid-Tie maintain a connection to the grid but in GridZero you are not selling back to grid. My guess is that when you were in Grid-Tie the inverter was pulling more current from the battery bank, so more current was flowing through the DC terminals. Heat produced is the current squared times resistance.

I am not sure how the Radian detects a loose DC terminal. It may be a temperature rise. Maybe Greg can clue us in.

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