No Grid AC INPUT

Dual Input, 120/240, stainless steel form factor design for unsurpassed surge capability
gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:06 pm

Have been unable to have the Radian 8048A AC INPUT accept grid power.

Grid readings are:
L1 > N = 123.5
L2 > N = 123.5
L1 > L2 = 215.6

Is this a problem for the Radian?

Thanks

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:27 pm

The 8048A needs 120/240 single phase for input (2 legs 180┬░ out of phase). It looks like you are trying to feed it with 2 legs of a 3 phase service (3 legs 120┬░ out of phase). If your service phase angle was 180┬░ I would expect L1 and L2 to be 123.5 x 2 = 247Vac.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:37 pm

Although the voltage is as stated the Mate3s shows 247v next to the grid symbol.

Does that mean the Mate3s is adding the L1 and L2 leg voltages rather than reading the voltage between L1 and L2?

George

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:18 pm

Yes it does indeed do that! Last year I was away and we had an extended outage. I had my dad hook up the small generator and I was to remotely start the charger and make sure it switched over. I tried for hours to get it to switch and I could not so I gave up, luckily the sun came out so all way good. I got home the next weekend and looked at the gen, it was set to 120 not 120/240 so the radian kept telling me I had 240v when I looked in status when in fact it was 2x 120 that were not out of phase with each other. Basically the switch just puts both l1 qnd l2 of the gen output over to the same 120v leg. Not sure why this would ever be useful but owell...

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:21 pm

In your case I'm not sure there is any way to fix this issue.... unless you are not on a 3 phase service which would mean you have other system issues.

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:25 pm

My home is wired from the utility 120/120/208 and this has created major issues with my Radian install.

Any suggested solutions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:35 pm

Options:

1. Install a transformer (auto-former) to convert 1 of your 120Vac 3 phase power feeds into a 120/240V output. You could use 2 of OutBack's PSX-240 units in parallel to make it happen. Your 3 phase grid feed will be unbalanced which can create power quality issues. This is not a good option.

2. Sell the Radian and purchase an OutBack FLEXpower 3 system. The FP3-VFXR3648A system is 3 x 3.6kW inverters set up as 120/208. This power panel would fit perfectly with your 120/208 grid. I've put a few of these on some remote oil/gas sites in northern Canada and they have been rock solid. http://www.outbackpower.com/products/in ... -three-fxr

What is your goal?

Where are you at in the world?

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:39 pm

Yea you have essentially a y connected service. 120 from n to hot but 208 from hot to hot. Optimally you should be outputting 3 phase at it will be unbalanced if you just install a from one phase. I hate to say it but you need a system change.

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:40 am

Kurt

Will your option 2 work if I only have 2 of 3 legs available at my home?

Thanks

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:34 am

How did you end up with 2 outputs of a 3 phase output system? You have a very difficult situation.

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:46 am

gpearce52 wrote:Will your option 2 work if I only have 2 of 3 legs available at my home?
Yes it will work. If you only have 2 legs input/output you could switch off the 3rd inverter and keep it as a spare. There is no need to have the 3rd one on if it is not charging or inverting. With just 2 VFXR3648A inverters this would be a 7.2kW 208Vac system (a bit smaller than the 8.0kW Radian).
Shadow_Storm56 wrote:How did you end up with 2 outputs of a 3 phase output system?
This is actually pretty common in many areas, especially the Caribbean.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:02 am

Is it just 3 trans formers feeding an area and some houses get one set of 2 and some get others to balance It out? Or would it literally just be 2 transformers by the guys house rather than one split phase transformer. I am quite curious how this works

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am

Picture a Delta/WYE transformer on the pole. On the WYE side phases A & B go to house 1, B & C to house 2, A & C to house 3 etc.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:00 pm

Interesting, that's sorta what I was thinking it would be. I guess it saves number of transformers or somthing. So they literally have 2 phase power, very interesting.

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Can two VFXR3648A be used to replace the Radian 8048A and connected to Phase A & B as in a three phase implementation?

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:47 pm

finding an inverter that will treat that like split phase rather than 2 phase will be difficult. 208v on a split phase system is 32v undervoltage so the inverter will likely not function. it's ironic because as it is an inverter it is likely capable of making whatever voltage required. It could probably even do 60v on each leg but it is not setup to do so and obviously would lower it's capacity hugely. So my point is physically it could work but if it's rated for 240 unless the setting can be changed that low or outback gives you some sort of special program to allow it then it will not work. just look at the inverters specs, it will tell you the voltage ranges and if it supports 208v. if you were just using the system as an off grid system and only grid connecting in times when it is needed or to charge then you could almost run the radian as normal so it would mean everything on the radain would run 120/240 which should be no issue as that is the most common power and then have a transformer to change the 208 to 240 for when you need to be grid connected. This way you would not be constantly having the issues of loss from the transformers magnetizing current but still be able to use the sytem, this would really only work if you set it up so the radian was loaded down with an amount of load you can sustain without constantly having to charge again.

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:39 am

gpearce52 wrote:Can two VFXR3648A be used to replace the Radian 8048A and connected to Phase A & B as in a three phase implementation?
Hi George. Yes, using 2 VFXR inverters for two legs of 120/208 is possible. This is what I was referring to above with using only 2 inverters on the FP3 power panel. You can get all the bits and pieces to wire up your own 120/208 system with just 2 of the VFXR inverters if you prefer. I think when it is all said and done you will find the FP3 panel cost the same and saves a ton of time and comes with an extra inverter and possibly and an extra charge controller (if you only have 2 PV arrays).

OutBack does sell and FP2 (2 inverter) power panel but it is set up as 120/240. While you could tweak it to a 120/208 system it would probably void the listing for the panel. An inspector would probably not approve it.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:23 am

Thanks Kurt,
I was thinking out loud. Just discovered that the warranty on the Radian is not transferable so selling the system is off the table and therefore purchasing a FLEXpower THREE FXR is not an option. Other options are limited and expensive. I'll keep the forum updated.

Shadow_Storm56
Forum Guru
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm
My RE system: Solar panels, charge controllers , outback radian inverter.

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Shadow_Storm56 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:07 pm

So go with a high efficiency transformer?

raysun
Forum Czar
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 Strings @ 2 Series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings @ 2 series)

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by raysun » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:12 pm

Shadow_Storm56 wrote:So go with a high efficiency transformer?
Utilities do it all the time.

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:59 pm

That high efficiency transformer, 15 KVA, will cost me US$4,000.00 delivered to my residence.

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:38 am

Ouch! What is your goal for this system?

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:55 am

The plan was to use GridZero in order to run my 2.5 ton air conditioning system.

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:16 am

Can your air conditioner work with 120/240 Vac single phase instead of 208V 3 phase?

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

gpearce52
Forum Whiz
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:59 am
My RE system: Radian 8048A/GSLC, FlexNet DC, Mate 3s, HUB 10.3, FM80 (2), Hanwha QCELLS 320 (24), TechLuck SHHWC (3/24), Leaf Modules (98), Hyper Engineering Sure Start
Location: Nassau Bahamas

Re: No Grid AC INPUT

Post by gpearce52 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:53 am

Yes, air conditioner works fine on 208 or 240 (all appliances etc are US spec in country).

Just wish the Mate 3s had shown the correct voltage 208 rather than 240 (sum of L1 & L2), would have saved weeks of frustration and returning parts for evaluation.

REAL clarification in the documentation and information to tech support (who readily accepted 240 from Mate 3s) would really help, when this is a known issue in Caribbean.

Currently operating whole house with the Radian in the Off Grid mode and the air-conditioner on-grid.

No final solution as yet.

Post Reply