Battery Charging - Config Help

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Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:45 am

Looking for a bit of expert advice on this Battery Array/Charge Config. Things have been running pretty well so far but wanted to make sure i have the most effective configuration setup.

System -

Mate 3 Controller
Port 1 - Radian 7048E (Euro) Running 240 Single phase 60hz.
Port 2 - Flexmax 80 - 16 LG 300 Watt Panels
Port 3 - Flexmax 80 - 17 LG 300 Watt Panels
Port 4 - FlexDC Monitor
GS Load center

AC1-Grid 230V
AC2-GEN 6000W Honda Inverter @ LPG


8 x Trojan IND17-6v @ 48V

Normally we run GRID-ZERO, southeast asia location with full sun exposure. (monsoon season i switch to UPS mode for standby power, as sun is unpredictable)

Normal Load is 0.7kw - 1.0kw. (Periodic 1.5-2.5kw load well pump filling cistern)

Attached are Screen caps of my settings, I would highly appreciate someone taking a look at this. Im a solar first timer with little more than a year under my belt running this system. I configured to best of my ability using the Trojan info sheet.

(Attached)
Attachments
Screen Shot 2017-08-06 at 3.40.34 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2017-08-06 at 3.40.41 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2017-08-06 at 3.40.21 PM.jpg
Last edited by domatic on Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
domatic
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My RE system: OFF GRID - 33 x 300w LG Mono Radian 7048 @ 240v 60hz Single Phase - GS Load Center - 2 x Flexmax 80 - Mate3 - 8 x Trojan Industrial IND17 @ 48V, 960 AH - Honda eu6500is on Atkinson MINI-i controller.

Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:46 am

The FlexDC Config -
Screen Shot 2017-08-06 at 3.40.48 PM.jpg


MPPT -
Screen Shot 2017-08-06 at 4.09.11 PM.jpg


Trojan Industrial PDF
http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TRJN01 ... sGuide.pdf
domatic
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Mike Curran on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:43 am

Comparing your battery specs to your charger settings, I see some slight differences which may NOT be of concern:

Float volts - spec says 54, your setting 52.8
If this setting is giving you satisfactory SG readings, I'd say leave it as is.

Absorb volts - spec says 59.2 (bulk) 56.4 (absorb), your setting 57.6
Outback doesn't allow for separate settings for bulk and absorb voltage and it looks like you've split the difference between Trojan's 2 specs. Probably a safe bet but hopefully someone else can give a more informed opinion.

Equalize volts - spec says 64.8, your setting 61.6
As long as your SG's for your bank are all the same (and at 100% SOC) at the end of an equalization, then this is probably okay. If not you either have to extend the equalization time or raise the voltage setting.

Your MPPT settings look like the default - same as mine, works for me!

In general I find Trojan's specs confusing. Are there really chargers out there that have settings for "Boost"? This leads to my last comment, about charge return amps on your FNDC. I'm also confused by Trojan's boost and bulk current setting specs. Rolls Battery recommends end amps (or return amps) be set at 2-3% of your battery C20 charge rate, and you've got it at 2.5% so I'd say that looks good. Your absorb time might be a little short at one hour, but check your SG's after an absorb cycle. That'll tell you if it's adequate or not.

Disclaimer - I'm no expert, hope others will chime in here if they see I might be leading you astray. IMHO, for a newbie you're doing pretty good! - Mike
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby blackswan555 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:21 pm

You are at defaults which are way too safe, Your absorb voltage is too low and absorb time WAY too short both on solar and inverter & at at rough guess the FNDC is also controlling some of the charge ? ( terminating even earlier)

You need to urgently get a hydrometer and start looking at your SGs , I think they will be very low, As for charge voltage I would start with 58.4v and an absorb time of 3.5hrs, Do not forget you have to "address" each component separately to programme, EG port 1, Port 2 & on the FNDC un-check enable and and set its start and stop SOC to 0, ( still very safe, we will put it up to get SGs back when you have hydrometer and a little more experience)

Tim

ps what part of SE Asia ? In Cambodia at the mo, "Big" rain supposed to start mid week here,
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:02 pm

Thanks for the replies!

Im not sure on this one, im not seeing any disable for FNDC settings or elsewhere. I will give the new charge settings you suggested a try and test the SG, (post results soon)

We are in the Northern Philippines monsoon season is on! Hope you got a chance to visit Angkor Watt!

Thanks again for your advice.
Luke


blackswan555 wrote:You are at defaults which are way too safe, Your absorb voltage is too low and absorb time WAY too short both on solar and inverter & at at rough guess the FNDC is also controlling some of the charge ? ( terminating even earlier)

You need to urgently get a hydrometer and start looking at your SGs , I think they will be very low, As for charge voltage I would start with 58.4v and an absorb time of 3.5hrs, Do not forget you have to "address" each component separately to programme, EG port 1, Port 2 & on the FNDC un-check enable and and set its start and stop SOC to 0, ( still very safe, we will put it up to get SGs back when you have hydrometer and a little more experience)
ps what part of SE Asia ? In Cambodia at the mo, "Big" rain supposed to start mid week here,
domatic
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My RE system: OFF GRID - 33 x 300w LG Mono Radian 7048 @ 240v 60hz Single Phase - GS Load Center - 2 x Flexmax 80 - Mate3 - 8 x Trojan Industrial IND17 @ 48V, 960 AH - Honda eu6500is on Atkinson MINI-i controller.

Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:05 pm

Current settings, full sun and charging at the moment.

Screen Shot 2017-08-08 at 8.03.40 AM.jpg


Screen Shot 2017-08-08 at 8.03.52 AM.jpg
domatic
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My RE system: OFF GRID - 33 x 300w LG Mono Radian 7048 @ 240v 60hz Single Phase - GS Load Center - 2 x Flexmax 80 - Mate3 - 8 x Trojan Industrial IND17 @ 48V, 960 AH - Honda eu6500is on Atkinson MINI-i controller.

Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Vic on Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:35 pm

Hi domatic,

As has been stated, actually measuring SGs with a high quality Hydrometer is the real way to determine just how well your batteries are being charged.

Have you taken any SG measurements yet?

Without SG data, it is difficult to know how well your present settings are working, and seems to me, that one would begin using the settings in the Trojan Data Sheet for your battery, here:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datash ... Sheets.pdf

Know of only several sites using these Industrial batteries. One user had much trouble getting to the correct Target SGs ... this was about four years ago, and Trojan may have increased Target charge voltages since then.

The Target SG is: 1.260 for full charge.
As I read it, the C20 capacity is 925 Ah
The Absorb time required for your situation is directly dependent upon the Depth Of Discharge in the previous discharge.

It might help if you have some specific concern that you are trying to address with the system ... Are you having some problem or issue with the system, or batteries, etc ?

If this system is quite new, the batteries will take a number of cycles (about 50 - 100) before they are broken-in and required charge parameters stabilize. In this period, it might that you do not use EA to terminate Absorb.

FWIW, Have not used Trojan IND batteries here, ... yet. Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby blackswan555 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:29 pm

Im not sure on this one, im not seeing any disable for FNDC settings or elsewhere
Probably best for now to just unplug FNDC data lead from Hub It needs to be re-installed later when you have your batteries full anyway (The batteries were "full" when you fist installed FNDC ? They have to be 100% as the FNDC defaults to that on initialisation)
Please start to read SGs as soon as possible, I think you are going to be unpleasantly surprised,,,, I understand that is not fun at all, A quote from someone else I nagged and nagged that made me smile ,
If I've seen anything often repeated it would be Tim, aka Blackswan555, saying not to trust the reported SOC but to get out and take SGs. I tried to fight against his advise 'cause I'd rather pick lint off the walls than take SGs). But, sigh, he's right on the money (or should I say battery budget)
Also worth making a note of charge voltages hit and for how long and post them to cross reference to SGs, With Monsoon season with you, Load dependent of course, But you may be using you gen a lot more than you would like, So maybe tweak the voltages up,


We are in the Northern Philippines monsoon season is on! Hope you got a chance to visit Angkor Watt
Yes made it just as it closed,,, doe ](*,) But Sunset from side of lake was good enough :grin: Nice and Sunny here in Sihanouk today but it is coming by the look of it,

Do you have remote temp sensor installed on hottest part of your battery bank, Plugged into whatever is in port 1 ?

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:20 am

Ok based on the latest reconfig. Solar charge cycle today got the bank to 100% SOC 58.4V, i then shut off the inverter and let the batteries rest for 1 hour, settled to 53V, did SG test on all batteries.

+
Battery 1 - 1265
Battery 2 - 1245
Battery 3 - 1235
Battery 4 - 1245
Battery 5 - 1240
Battery 6 - 1260
Battery 7 - 1260
Battery 8 - 1265
-

According to the tool used all levels are well within the green. Curious to know why Battery 3,5 would be lower and what would the recommended corrective action here.

Thanks,
Luke
Last edited by domatic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
domatic
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Posts: 21
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My RE system: OFF GRID - 33 x 300w LG Mono Radian 7048 @ 240v 60hz Single Phase - GS Load Center - 2 x Flexmax 80 - Mate3 - 8 x Trojan Industrial IND17 @ 48V, 960 AH - Honda eu6500is on Atkinson MINI-i controller.

Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:33 am

Probably best for now to just unplug FNDC data lead from Hub It needs to be re-installed later when you have your batteries full anyway (The batteries were "full" when you fist installed FNDC ? They have to be 100% as the FNDC defaults to that on initialisation)

This should have been at 100% when rebooted it last. I will make sure to do that again.

Do you have remote temp sensor installed on hottest part of your battery bank, Plugged into whatever is in port 1 ?


Yes i have one on battery #5 center line, connected to Radian on port 1, seems to register temp across all the ports. something i noticed about these 500+ pound batteries is they barely change temperature no matter what you hit them with... 1 or 2c fluctuations at most.

Screen Shot 2017-08-09 at 1.34.43 AM.jpg


Thanks again,
Luke
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Vic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:41 pm

Hi Luke,

The correct Temperature Compensation of charge voltages is -- 5mV per cell per degree change from about 27 C (think that Trojan uses 27C). Believe that the FM CCs used this ... but do not know if there are other places (Mate 3?) where this might need to be set, is this set correctly everywhere it needs to be?Generally SG variations of 20 points or so, indicate that it is a good time to do an EQ. Trojan may also have a periodic EQ recommendation in their IND manual.

Fairly large variations in electrolyte levels can also affect SG readings a bit, but not to the extent of the variations between cells that you are seeing.

Are these batteries new ... how old?
Often, batteries need a number of cycles for readings to stabilize, and for behavior to become predictable, as well as to build ultimate Capacity. Do you have 100, or more cycles on this bank to about 80% SOC, or a bit lower?

Approximately how much Distilled Water is needed to fill the batteries back to the recommended electrolyte levels in the past few months?
Did you do a Commissioning charge and perhaps EQ on this bank just after initial installation?

The Target SG is 1.260. Even good Hydrometers have only about a 5 point repeatability/accuracy.

If needed, here is a good Article on Measuring SGs from Surrette Battery. Your target SG for full charge is 1.260, Surrette uses 1.265 nominal as full charge, but still this Article is a good guide:
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support ... ic-gravity

EDIT: OH, and forgot to mention, believe that the Charge Factor, of the Ah Efficiency (perhaps in your first Post) was set to 94%. If this part of what the system uses to help determine SOC, it probably needs to be set around 85%, as a starting point, as Flooded batteries are NOT 94% efficient (IMO) ... <

Thanks for any additional info, Vic
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:29 pm

The correct Temperature Compensation of charge voltages is -- 5mV per cell per degree change from about 27 C (think that Trojan uses 27C). Believe that the FM CCs used this ... but do not know if there are other places (Mate 3?) where this might need to be set, is this set correctly everywhere it needs to be?Generally SG variations of 20 points or so, indicate that it is a good time to do an EQ. Trojan may also have a periodic EQ recommendation in their IND manual.


I will verify these settings and post the results. I have not done too many EQ to date i will start doing them monthly.

Are these batteries new ... how old?
Often, batteries need a number of cycles for readings to stabilize, and for behavior to become predictable, as well as to build ultimate Capacity. Do you have 100, or more cycles on this bank to about 80% SOC, or a bit lower?


Batteries about 16 months old. I would say they have about 400-500 Cycles, down to SOC 85%, then returning 100% by 10-11am or so the following day. They were initially EQ at the trojan distributor before delivery, arrived fully charged.

Approximately how much Distilled Water is needed to fill the batteries back to the recommended electrolyte levels in the past few months?
Did you do a Commissioning charge and perhaps EQ on this bank just after initial installation?


We refill with the (auto watering system) about 3-4 liters every month, due to the huge size of these batteries the amount of liquid drop in the cells is visually very small each month. We find it unnecessary to refill more than once per month.

EDIT: OH, and forgot to mention, believe that the Charge Factor, of the Ah Efficiency (perhaps in your first Post) was set to 94%. If this part of what the system uses to help determine SOC, it probably needs to be set around 85%, as a starting point, as Flooded batteries are NOT 94% efficient (IMO) ... <


Will give this a try. Thanks Vic for the assist.
Luke
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:03 pm

A little off subject question, i have recently noticed that the FM80's are performing different functions, and much different watts. (Port2 is bulk while 3 is absorb) etc.

We do run 33 panels total, so uneven number leaves 1 more panel to one FM80, should only be a slight difference in wattage being produced.

Im wondering if there is some other issue, i have not noticed such a difference in the past year, perhaps i need a reboot of all devices at 100%SOC there has been many configuration changes lately on this tuning effort.

At about 12noon
Screen Shot 2017-08-09 at 1.13.51 PM.jpg


At about 1pm
Screen Shot 2017-08-09 at 1.14.11 PM.jpg
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby blackswan555 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:36 pm

Battery 2 - 1245
Battery 3 - 1235
Battery 4 - 1245
Battery 5 - 1240
Are still very low, I would continue with long / high absorb for a few more days,(Set times, do not let FNDC control anything at the moment, No matter how you set it, It is wrong at the moment anyway) see if they catch up, And then do an EQ, ; Note an EQ is not just "pushing the button" You need to charge until all SGs stop rising at normal voltage, Switch to EQ voltage and charge again untill they ALL stop rising, This may take MANY hours ( keep an eye on battery temp, if it gets to 45c, Shut down and start again next day)

:grin: On the bright side, You WILL see a significant improvement in your batteries after final EQ,

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:45 pm

Copy all, at the moment the afternoon cloudy weather is not cooperating, barely able to get past 93%, we may have to use the GRID for next few days in order to recondition the batteries.

Thanks again for the advice, i will report back after a few days.
Luke


blackswan555 wrote:
Battery 2 - 1245
Battery 3 - 1235
Battery 4 - 1245
Battery 5 - 1240
Are still very low, I would continue with long / high absorb for a few more days,(Set times, do not let FNDC control anything at the moment, No matter how you set it, It is wrong at the moment anyway) see if they catch up, And then do an EQ, ; Note an EQ is not just "pushing the button" You need to charge until all SGs stop rising at normal voltage, Switch to EQ voltage and charge again untill they ALL stop rising, This may take MANY hours ( keep an eye on battery temp, if it gets to 45c, Shut down and start again next day)

:grin: On the bright side, You WILL see a significant improvement in your batteries after final EQ,

Tim
domatic
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Mike Curran on Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:44 am

domatic wrote:A little off subject question, i have recently noticed that the FM80's are performing different functions, and much different watts. (Port2 is bulk while 3 is absorb) etc.


Domatic- You could try programming the Mate3 to enable "Charge Controller Float Coordination". According to the manual, "this enables the (charge controller) devices to enter the float stage, or perform other activities, simultaneously rather than individually."

Hope this helps.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Raj174 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:01 pm

Domatic,
Noticed one of the two arrays has 17 300 watt panels. What is the panel configuration of this array? 300 watt panels can be configured in strings of 2 or 3 depending on VOC, but neither of these configurations yield an array of 17 panels. What is the PV input voltage to each controller at full sun?

Rick
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Vic on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:20 pm

Raj174 wrote:Domatic,
Noticed one of the two arrays has 17 300 watt panels. What is the panel configuration of this array? 300 watt panels can be configured in strings of 2 or 3 depending on VOC, but neither of these configurations yield an array of 17 panels. What is the PV input voltage to each controller at full sun?

Rick


Hi Rick,

Noticed that in the initial Post, but thought it was a Typo, then there was this from Domatic,

"We do run 33 panels total, so uneven number leaves 1 more panel to one FM80, should only be a slight difference in wattage being produced".

... but forgot to ask about it.

Thanks for bringing it up ... Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Raj174 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:32 pm

Hi Vic,
From what I can find, LG only makes two 300 watt panels and both are 60 cell panels at VPM 32 volts, VOC 38.8 volts.
A mystery brewing.

Rick
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Vic on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:00 pm

Hi Rick, Good Catch!

Think that you are on the right track. Thanks, Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:21 am

Had a full sun day here today, batteries fully charged with the new settings.

SG after 1 hour of resting, no load on bank.

Battery 1 - 1265
Battery 2 - 1265
Battery 3 - 1265
Battery 4 - 1265
Battery 5 - 1260
Battery 6 - 1265
Battery 7 - 1265
Battery 8 - 1265

Will do EQ again with SG monitoring over the weekend.

Thanks Again,
Luke
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:01 am

Raj174 wrote:Hi Vic,
From what I can find, LG only makes two 300 watt panels and both are 60 cell panels at VPM 32 volts, VOC 38.8 volts.
A mystery brewing.

Rick


Rick,

Specs of panels- LG 60 Cell Mono LG300N1C-B3

Screen Shot 2017-08-10 at 4.14.31 PM.jpg


Screen Shot 2017-08-10 at 4.51.17 PM.jpg



My bad on the stated number of panels, upon review its actually 15 panels, and 18 panels.

-----
LG modules are wired in series going to Midnight combiner box then to controller.

FM80-#1Port2
3 pcs LG wired in series parallel of 6
Max Voltage Lifetime from Solar 119.8

FM80#2-Port3
3 pcs LG wired in series parallel of 5
Max Voltage Lifetime from Solar 117.5
---

We over spec'd this due to a long run from combiner box to charge controllers/inverter location 80+m

I just enabled the Global Charger Control and will monitor this.

Thanks!
Luke
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Raj174 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:07 am

That's good to hear, "my bad" problems are the easiest to fix. One other concern, with 9900 watts of PV, and considering at most 25% PV loses due to heat, that would be about 150 amps charging the battery or about a 16% charge rate, which may be a bit high for FLA batteries. My understanding it that 13% is more in the ballpark for a max rate. I know this isn't relative to your current issue, however I just thought I should convey my concern. Of course if the 80 meter run takes a percent or two then no problem.
Good luck with the system

Rick
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Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby domatic on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:14 pm

Hi Rick, thanks for the input here. Im guessing that mate3 - global charge control mode (enabled) will limit the overall charging to 110AMP, at the current settings. (should be no need to charger faster than this, our over spec on panels was to compensate for rainy day) Im hoping im correct in that this settings handles both CC's.

On a side note, even with these Global Charge settings the CC's still seem function independently from each other. I still notice different Absorb and Bulk process on them. However over time they eventually sync up. Perhaps just the device time based settings are taking effect.

Screen Shot 2017-08-13 at 1.10.10 PM.jpg


Luke



Raj174 wrote:That's good to hear, "my bad" problems are the easiest to fix. One other concern, with 9900 watts of PV, and considering at most 25% PV loses due to heat, that would be about 150 amps charging the battery or about a 16% charge rate, which may be a bit high for FLA batteries. My understanding it that 13% is more in the ballpark for a max rate. I know this isn't relative to your current issue, however I just thought I should convey my concern. Of course if the 80 meter run takes a percent or two then no problem.
Good luck with the system

Rick
domatic
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My RE system: OFF GRID - 33 x 300w LG Mono Radian 7048 @ 240v 60hz Single Phase - GS Load Center - 2 x Flexmax 80 - Mate3 - 8 x Trojan Industrial IND17 @ 48V, 960 AH - Honda eu6500is on Atkinson MINI-i controller.

Re: Battery Charging - Config Help

Postby Raj174 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:21 pm

Domatic,
That feature only works if the CC's are in GT mode. Check the amperage output of the CC's at highest production. Charging amps may not be too much considering the long PV run, unless you used something bigger than #2 AWG. Still better to check than to shorten the life of the batteries.

Rick
Raj174
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My RE system: 3600 watt PV | Classic 150 cc | Midnite epanel | GS4048A | 195 AH LiFePO4


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