One mate3 two masters?

Mate3 and Mate3s communications devices for Outback Power
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Jtlagger
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One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:59 pm

My solar installer but two separate systems each consisting of 15 280watt panels, a radian inverter, fx80, and 8 batteries into 1 mate3 and set them both as master. The don’t tie together until they get to the interior panel. Should i have a master/slave? Or should i have a second mate3? Or is it fine as is?

sodamo
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36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
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4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
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OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
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Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
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Honda EU7000i

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Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by sodamo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:10 am

A second Mate3 would also require a 2nd Hub, but honestly not sure I understand your system. Perhaps a simple line drawing showing connectivity?
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
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Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:21 am

I think I read in the Bible somewhere: "One Mate cannot serve two masters", or something like that. 😉

I second @sodamo, a line drawing would help greatly.

Jtlagger
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:30 am

Does this help?
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raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
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Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:12 am

Are there any sort of monitors on the batteries?

Jtlagger
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:15 am

theres a display on the mate3 and i tested the voltage with a meter.

pss
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by pss » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:27 am

I advise you to remove power from your system both loads and PV power until you understand the proper configuration of your equipment and can correct the improper wiring. If you don't you may very well ruin some of your components, ruin your batteries and not have the AC power you need. then follow what people are telling you to do. Don't start multiple threads. You need to stop, look, read and listen IMO.

sodamo
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My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by sodamo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:33 pm

Diagram sorta helps in that seems to indicate confusion.
Not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Battery bank?

Multiple CC and multiple Radians are a common configuration. Please review the installation manuals and diagrams on Outback website. Stacking is also explained.
The FM 80’s don’t usually connect to individual inverters.

A Master inverter needs to be in Hub port 1
I would expect trying to ID 2 masters would return a stacking error but not going to try mine to find out.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:38 pm

sodamo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:33 pm


A Master inverter needs to be in Hub port 1
I would expect trying to ID 2 masters would return a stacking error but not going to try mine to find out.
All of Hamakua would be up in arms if you were to go offline. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Jtlagger
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:38 pm

It’s had no issue accepting two masters. My question was because there’s two different panel sets and two battery banks should there be two masters or a master/slave. Bc one system is not operating as efficient as the other one and I’m trying to determine why. When i switched port 2 to slave the controller went 0.00 for amps and kw, and this is the system in port 2 that was operating better producing 20-25 kWh per day. The inefficient system is producing 7-8.

Mike Curran
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Mike Curran » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:02 pm

Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:38 pm
It’s had no issue accepting two masters. My question was because there’s two different panel sets and two battery banks should there be two masters or a master/slave. Bc one system is not operating as efficient as the other one and I’m trying to determine why. When i switched port 2 to slave the controller went 0.00 for amps and kw, and this is the system in port 2 that was operating better producing 20-25 kWh per day. The inefficient system is producing 7-8.
You need to combine your batteries into one bank, then you'll have a pretty standard system. One master, one slave. I think having two separate batteries connected to 2 Radians sharing a single AC output is causing the imbalance at midday.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:07 pm

Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:38 pm
It’s had no issue accepting two masters. My question was because there’s two different panel sets and two battery banks should there be two masters or a master/slave. Bc one system is not operating as efficient as the other one and I’m trying to determine why. When i switched port 2 to slave the controller went 0.00 for amps and kw, and this is the system in port 2 that was operating better producing 20-25 kWh per day. The inefficient system is producing 7-8.
The Outback architecture assumes a single battery bank for a single system. A system would consist of a Mate, Hub, Flexmax charge controllers, and (in this case) Radian inverters connected to the Hub.

How the installer deployed the system is unconventional to say the least. That it's been working is a pleasant surprise, that its having issues that are difficult to track down is, unfortunately, not surprising.

There is no effective method to monitor and manage battery charging, for example. I am an AGM battery user, and can attest that they are finicky about maintenance. With the setup, it's a bit like piloting a small aircraft, but flying blind and with no fuel gauges.

The best, and only, data on battery charging from the PV arrays is logged in the Flexmax charge controllers. They maintain 120 days of information.

If the batteries are to be supplimentally charged from the grid via the Radians, a separate investigation of their charging contribution would be in order, but without a monitoring device like the FNDC to track current flow, it may be impossible to discern charge current from load current.

On another note, are the AC outputs from the two Radians feeding separate split-phase 240V circuits in the load panel, or are their outputs combined somehow?

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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:20 pm

There is two 60amp? breakers in the panel, one for each system. If i bought a second hub and mate3, or just unplugged one of the two systems from the mate3 (isn’t it optional?) do you think that may help?

Jtlagger
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:22 pm

Sorry, 120. See attached.
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provo
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by provo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:44 pm

Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:20 pm
There is two 60amp? breakers in the panel, one for each system. If i bought a second hub and mate3, or just unplugged one of the two systems from the mate3 (isn’t it optional?) do you think that may help?
My advice is to modify your system to agree with the input you're getting on this forum, and see if that solves the original problem that you presented to the forum in your first post in the other thread. And be sure to get an FNDC and shunt(s).

raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:53 pm

Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:20 pm
There is two 60amp? breakers in the panel, one for each system. If i bought a second hub and mate3, or just unplugged one of the two systems from the mate3 (isn’t it optional?) do you think that may help?
Are you principally relying on this system to offset grid consumption during the day when PV harvest is available?

If so, I'm going to recommend an approach both more conventional and at the same time not especially advisable.

The conventional (and recommended) part is to consolidate the equipment into a configuration aligned with the best practices of the Outback architecture. That would mean 1 Hub, 1 Mate, the 2 Radians in Master/Slave, and the 2 FM80/PV Arrays feeding a single battery bank.

The not especially advisable part is combining the existing batteries into a single bank. I'm still going to recommend this, however, because, IMO, both the existing batteries are likely at end of life, and due for replacement anyway. Creating a single battery of the two in service will not kill them materially faster at this late stage (but they will die. How soon, either in their current configuration or reconfigured, is an open question in both cases.)

220AH capacity, when the battery monoblocks were new, is too small for each system. As was mentioned, the maximum charging current was likely in the 50 - 60A range. The FM80s should have their output current limited to what the battety is designed to handle, which in turn, limits maximum possible PV harvest. The FM80s driven (or perhaps overdriven) by the 4.2kW PV arrays could easily produce 80A maximum. Now that the batteries are naturally reduced in charge storage capacity, they can't accept as much charge current. One symptom might be battery temperature rising above typical at the end of the Absorb stage.

When shopping for a new battery, its charge current acceptance should equal or slightly exceed 160A.

I'm off-grid so don't deal with grid interactivity. However, several other experts on this thread are grid tied and can fill in the details on that aspect.

This is an assumption "to do" list:

• Aquire an FNDC and two shunts (500A/50mv).
• Reconfigure Radians into a standard configuration.
• Rewire the load panel such that the Radians in tandem are feeding the two circuit legs in parallel.
• Reconfigure the current batteries into a single battery. This step.should be accompanied by a capacity test. If you decide to take this reconfiguration route, the details of testing can be discussed.

Next steps "to do" list:
• Research, budget for, and purchase a new battery of the proper capacity and configuration to power the system.

Just my $0.02 - and your $10k.

Jtlagger
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:55 pm

Yes certainly i am trying that, but i have had zero luck getting any qualified installer to visit me and most of the suggestions I cannot do myself so i was just wondering if there was some things i can try while i continue to seek a professional.

raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:38 pm

Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:55 pm
Yes certainly i am trying that, but i have had zero luck getting any qualified installer to visit me and most of the suggestions I cannot do myself so i was just wondering if there was some things i can try while i continue to seek a professional.
Of course. Most of us are reflexively DIY.

Right now, you can try to gauge battery health, and its potential role in PV harvest.

Also, check the PV system for any issues.
The panel feed wires should terminate in combiner boxes. Measure voltages of each of the strings (they should each terminate at the line side of circuit breakers or fuses. Note if any of the string voltages are markedly different than the others. Check and make note of the voltages for each string in both arrays.

***CAUTION***
The DC voltages being generated are potentially lethal. Use caution when opening boxes and measuring.

Jtlagger
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Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by Jtlagger » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:50 pm

So yes along those lines so far i have:
Checked voltage along bus bar at the top of each set of 5
15a breakers. 98 volts +\-

Checked each breaker. 98v

Checked batteries. 52v each set

Cleaned both panel systems

Updated firmware in both radians.

Several people said my fx80 are overloaded. However they appear to be working and this would be a job too big for me to re run 1 panel set from each Panel group to a new controller bc all 5 sets go into one bus bar and one wire out. I can just turn off one of the breakers if this is a serious concern but as i mentioned no issues have come up on that.


Is the mate3 optional? I’m going to have it set on just one radian and controller for a few days and then swap it to the other. I don’t think one mate3 is supposed to work with 2 different battery banks and 2 different AC outputs. If this seems to help I’ll buy a second mate3 if needed.

sodamo
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Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by sodamo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:52 pm

I was wondering about the 240 ac as well.
We know OB can sync up to 10 inverters properly installed, but if truly separate? Just lucky possibly?
I remember my installer talking a bit about Radian syncing limitations, but not applicable to me so not retained in detail, but it did have something about the distribution panel and 2 ac sources. At the time my generator was tied directly to the panel as we were swapping out the inverters.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

fcwlp
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I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by fcwlp » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:17 pm

Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:50 pm
Updated firmware in both radians.
What levels of firmware were the two Radians running? Did you follow the steps in this app note http://outbackpower.com/downloads/docum ... p_note.pdf that I referenced in your other thread on resetting the current values?
raysun wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:53 pm
The not especially advisable part is combining the existing batteries into a single bank. I'm still going to recommend this, however, because, IMO, both the existing batteries are likely at end of life, and due for replacement anyway. Creating a single battery of the two in service will not kill them materially faster at this late stage (but they will die. How soon, either in their current configuration or reconfigured, is an open question in both cases.)
If you do four parallel strings with these used batteries, monitor the battery temps. The string with the lowest resistance will get the most current flow and could get very hot. Life is materially reduced when the batteries get hot (Arrhenius equation, 50% reduction for every 18F/10C (edit had 18C originally) rise) and batteries suffer physical damage typically starting around 120F.
Jtlagger wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:55 pm
Yes certainly i am trying that, but i have had zero luck getting any qualified installer to visit me and most of the suggestions I cannot do myself so i was just wondering if there was some things i can try while i continue to seek a professional
Have you checked with OB sales to see if they can recommend someone
Last edited by fcwlp on Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fcwlp
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My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: One mate3 two masters?

Post by fcwlp » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:24 pm

sodamo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:52 pm
At the time my generator was tied directly to the panel as we were swapping out the inverters.
This is analogous to having the grid tied to the output of the inverter. Not a good idea. I have seen a Schneider Conext and an OB GFVX (both installed by someone else) blow up when the grid was connected to the inverter output. The Conext was an incorrect grid-tie design the GVFX had a non-standard transfer operation that had an issue if things were switched too fast.

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