Multiple Charge Controllers

Discussion about the FM Extreme, FM60 and FM80 Charge Controllers

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Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby RoySalisbury on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:14 pm

Just to be sure I am not messing something up, I wanted to explain my current setup and plan going forward to get some feedback.

I currently have a 24v system. Not going to be able to change that. Just too expensive to step up to 48v with the current investment in hardware that I have. I also have an FM60 CC. Currently I have 6 - 210w panels hooked up and am right at the limit of what the CC can handle (can't add anymore panels to this since it would have to be 2 more panels and that would put me over the watt limit of the CC .. MAX supported is fine, but NEC recommended is over). Plus, 2 more panels is not enough anyway.

So, I had planned to get a second CC (probable an FM80 this time) and 4 - 320watt panels (since its a separate CC, no need to worry about voltage mis-match on the current panels .. plus the 210's are no longer available). This would double my output, and that is exactly what I need.

So, my question is.. can I run 2 different CC's tied into the same battery bank. Seems that I would be able too ... if not, its a heck of a limitation. And if I can, what issues do I need to worry about. Since I still have an open port on my HUB, it would plug into that .. but the MATE only seems to allow a singe CC (unlike the Inverters). Will they talk to each other and work together as one unit?

Roy
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby dhamilton on Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:32 pm

You can have multiple charge controllers tied to the same battery bank. Since you will have it plugged into the hub you will want to enable float coordination, you can do this through the Mate by going to ADV>MATE>PG3>CC then set "enable CC float coordination:" to YES. You will be able to see both charge controllers on the Mate.

Have a good one.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby RoySalisbury on Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:43 pm

Excellent. Thanks for the information. It really helps me out.

Roy
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Zachrey on Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:08 pm

I assume that I would have to program the new charge controller with the same Absorb, float and EQ settings or will it automatically adjust all required settings once plugged into the hub? There are quite a few settings that need to be matched between the two controllers!??

Also, what about when you are trying to EQ? I am having a terrible time trying to get my system to EQ. I have to run the generator AND the panels to get the voltage up to 31.0V AND I have to set the charge controller to 31.2V to make it still apply power while the generator via FX2420 is EQing. Will the Hub fix that? Maybe I need a Hub!?
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Vic on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:49 am

Hi Zachrey,

Had not replied before, as was not certain that an MX-60 CC could coordinate charge state ... someone here once said that ONLY the latest MX-60 FW version -- 5.11 -- was able to, but have not ever tried this with OB CCs. Perhaps someone who knows will clarify. Assume that Zachrey will be using an MX-60 plus an FM as CCs.

AND, on EQing your batteries;

Am glad that you are adding MORE PVs, as your system seems to have been lacking in PV power, significantly.

What is the power rating of your Generator?

The FX 2024 (if that is what you are using with the genset) has about 55 A DC charge capability, and if the PV power available is from the 600 W STC PVs in your profile, then you can be quite short in power.

The thing about EQing, is that a battery that really needs to be EQed requires quite a lot of charge current to get to the EQ voltage. And if you get behind EQing a battery, you can easily get into a situation where you simply cannot get there, and every day delayed in EQing, the battery will generally get farther behind, and require more current and/or time to get to EQ voltage.

Suggest that you try to EQ a single string of batteries, by carefully disconnecting one string. Then, perhaps you can EQ the other string, then combine them again, and perhaps EQ yet again.

You will need to take SG measurements before you start EQs, and during, to see how well the batteries are responding.

The batteries must be fully charged (or very close to it) before starting an EQ. And if you are behind in EQing, the EQ may take a long time.

You will need to manually Temperature Compensate the EQ voltage, as, at least the MX-60 does not have the ability to Temp Comp the EQ voltage. The Surrette Flooded batteries have a Temp Comp coefficient of --5mV/degree C, times the number of cells -- 12, in your case. AND, 31 V is the LOWEST EQ voltage that Surrette recommends -- you may want to measure the EQ voltage at the battery terminals, and perhaps increase the EQ voltage until you measure 31 V MINIMUM at the battery, IF you have an accurate MulitMeter.

Be certain that you are using the Remote Temp Sensor on EVERY charge source, or make certain that you configure the OB system to share a single RTS.

Regarding settings for more than one CC; If you cannot coordinate Charge States with your two CCs, then it might help to set the Absorb voltage (Vabs) on one CC slightly different than the other, and it can also help if one CC has a somewhat larger PV array than the other. If you can do this, then perhaps set the CC with the larger PV array to a slightly higher Vabs. Otherwise, with uncoordinated charge states, you can find that when one CC goes to Float, the other may not have enough PV power to maintain Vabs, and it reverts to B-MPPT for the rest of the day. This may not be a huge deal, but can subject the batteries to a bit more abuse, and water use, etc.

The charge current sharing will never be perfect, especially later in Absorb, even with Charge State coordination, and so on ...

Just my opinions, FWIW, Vic
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Zachrey on Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:25 pm

Thank you very much, Vic!!

The question is for someone else who has 6, 230 watt panels (two strings of 3) and wants to add panels. I'm thinking 3 strings of 3 would work best. Voc for strings of five panels is too high.

<rant>The panels are discontinued, of course, and now I have to find a way to search solar panels that are for sale,in stock today, that have identical parameters. Sigh. Isn't there a spreadsheet or a database or a lookup table or a cross reference table for solar panels? There are all kinds of cross references for transistors and diodes and stuff, why not solar panels? </rant>

it looks like we hafta have two FM80 controllers to accommodate all the power. The system has a FlexMax DC thingie, a hub, FM80 and a 24V inverter w/fan. all outback..
So I was wondering if the FM80s could talk to each other through the outback hub and coordinate battery charging.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Vic on Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:11 pm

Hi Zachrey,

Am pressed for time now ...

OK, somehow, thought that you had 600 W of PVs ...

Two FM CC should be able to talk to eachother, and coordinate charge states. Had guessed wrong about wanting to use an MX CC.

Guess that the existing 230 W PVs are 60 Cells, with a Vmp of about 29-ish V ?? If so, this configuration is common, still. If you can fine PVs with Vmps within 5% of what you have now that is great for adding strings in parallel. 10% difference is about the Max limit in Vmp difference.

Find the String Sizing Tool here to see what is the Max amount of PV could run with your FMs at 24 V battery.

More later, Good Luck, Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby klundquist on Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:17 am

Zachery,

The MX60 is rated for ~1500W of PV when used with a 24 volt battery bank. You pretty much have it maxed out already with the 6 x 230W pv modules. I suggest you consider purchasing 1 FM80 and add up to 2000W of PV. The new array will be isolated from your old array so you don't have to worry about trying to find more 230W modules.

If the MX60 firmware is version 5.11 the Mate can force it to "Float Coordinate" with the FM80. Both controllers must be connected to the OutBack Hub and connected to the same battery bank. Press and hold the far left button on the MX60 to see the firmware version (might have to press once then press and hold again). Float Coordination is a Mate command that will attempt to force all the charge controllers into the Float mode once one of the charge controllers reaches Float. You have to enable Float Coordination in the Advanced Mate menu.

You should program both controllers to the same Absorb, Float, and EQ voltages and (make sure Absorb and EQ time match as well). This video explains how to program the charge settings on the newer FM controllers http://outbackpower.force.com/articles/ ... controller . The steps are pretty much the same for the MX60 but some of the words for the menus are different.

Once you have both controllers installed make sure to check the Batt/Out voltage on the MX/FM 80 to see if they match. Do this check before turning on the PV breakers. If voltage is different use a volt meter to check at the battery bank then calibrate the controllers. This would be a good time to check the FX voltage on the Mate to see if everyone is on the same page.

I suggest you set the charge controller charge targets to at least .2 of a volt higher than the FX charge target. This will help to place a priority on solar charging. If your load is small enough you might be able to shut off the gen and let the solar take over on the constant voltage charge stage (Absorb/EQ/Float = Constant Voltage).

Keep in mind that no matter what for various reasons the controllers and FX may not always be in the same charging stage.

-Kurt
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby billi on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:25 am

dhamilton wrote:You can have multiple charge controllers tied to the same battery bank. Since you will have it plugged into the hub you will want to enable float coordination, you can do this through the Mate by going to ADV>MATE>PG3>CC then set "enable CC float coordination:" to YES. You will be able to see both charge controllers on the Mate.

Have a good one.


A friend asked me to ask here :grin: , how to connect two FM80 in harmony , i told him that one has to be at a lower voltage and the other one is then the master for the last full charge .... as it is my setup since years and is fine ..... (intotal, i have 4 different charge-controllers attached to my battery ) and only the one and only FM80 is allowed to finish charging at a slightly higher voltage ...

So , my friend asked me to ask how to best control 2 FM80 , i replied ------- with a HuB ---- , do they then communicate fine ? Is it worth the cash ? or just adjust voltage parameters ? without the HuB ?

Thanks Billi
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby larrywa on Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:29 am

billi wrote:
dhamilton wrote:You can have multiple charge controllers tied to the same battery bank. Since you will have it plugged into the hub you will want to enable float coordination, you can do this through the Mate by going to ADV>MATE>PG3>CC then set "enable CC float coordination:" to YES. You will be able to see both charge controllers on the Mate.

Have a good one.


A friend asked me to ask here :grin: , how to connect two FM80 in harmony , i told him that one has to be at a lower voltage and the other one is then the master for the last full charge .... as it is my setup since years and is fine ..... (intotal, i have 4 different charge-controllers attached to my battery ) and only the one and only FM80 is allowed to finish charging at a slightly higher voltage ...

So , my friend asked me to ask how to best control 2 FM80 , i replied ------- with a HuB ---- , do they then communicate fine ? Is it worth the cash ? or just adjust voltage parameters ? without the HuB ?

Thanks Billi



The hub doesn't perform any of this function. The Mate3 does this but to talk to multiple devices a LAN hub is required.

AFAIC the OB Hub is just a PoE hub but I have never tried any other brand so you are stuckwith buying the OB unit.

You need a Mate(3) to co-ordinate chargers as far as turning them on/Off etc... Otherwise the CC will operate to their own settings. This can be energy non-efficient though.

A Mate3 can shut off all inverters at midnight, and set them all into float mode when the first one calls for it.

The most important part of the Mate3 and the most detrimental is turning all CC units to the Boost voltage level when grid-tie operation is started. This ensures overlap of voltage level to ensure energy is inverted/sold to the grid.
The downside is that all the temperature compensation in the world is now useless as your battery levels are set by the sell voltage setting in the Mate3.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby billi on Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:59 am

OK , thanks

Will pass the info on ,

Sounds like an elegant idea , but not essential , if one sets each chargecontroller parameters right

Cheers billi
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby larrywa on Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:01 am

billi wrote:OK , thanks

Will pass the info on ,

Sounds like an elegant idea , but not essential , if one sets each chargecontroller parameters right

Cheers billi

Setting each individual CC right ay never work.

If the inverters go into grid-tie mode and pull the voltage down the CC units still in absorb/bulk mode may never be satisfied. Of course there are ways to prevent this but some methods only work for some cases.

I have been experimenting with this for almost two years and there are still times when I get caught with no charge at the end of the solar day. Some devices are heat compensated and some aren't and when the settings become crossed sometimes the day gets wasted.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby billi on Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:08 pm

No, it works perfectly fine for me to adust each CC of the 5 i have
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby blackswan555 on Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:25 am

Just set both the charge controllers to the same, It does not matter if one go's into absorb/ float a little earlier than other, What is very important is temperature sensing on ALL charge sources, If the system is linked together with hub & mate, You only need 1 plugged into whatever is in port 1 of the hub (usually VFX) If not, you need one on each charge source,

Tim
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Kwaka on Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:19 pm

Hi All, Is there any way to see the sum (combined output of 2 CC's) of multiple charge controllers on a Mate 2? I currntly have to FM80's but the Mate is only showing output of 1.
Cheers.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Mike Curran on Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:00 pm

Hey Kwaka, I don't know about total current but you "should" be able to toggle between your two FM80s on your Mate2 status meter screens using the PORT soft key. Can't verify this from experience but if I'm right you can add the two charger amps readings to get the total you're looking for. You probably need to have your CC's and Mate2 connected to an Outback comms Hub for this to work.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Kwaka on Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:30 am

Thanks Mike, I will give it a try. I also found a "sum" screen which shows the total amps and kw's being generated so that helps.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby adeniyi609 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi all.

Please I need your advice.

I have one outback radian series 7KVA inverter and I plan to use 120 batteries to provide backup for 3 days for my system.
Here is the catch , I plan to go off grid or have less use of the grid so I have decided to get at least 6 flex max charge controllers to charge my battery bank. Please note its a 48Volt system meaning i should have 30 racks (4*30) =120. The batteries are 200AH each. Do you think above will work? I guess i will need a DC busbar.

Please if you can help me with a small diagram, I will be most grateful.
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby blackswan555 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:56 am

It will work,,, But and it is a BIG but, The general rule is one string is ideal, 2 strings is OK, 3 Strings is pushing it a little, Any more than 3 and you will have problems with balancing them all,,, A, in charging, B in controlling temperatures & C. in servicing,

Go for High capacity with less cells,

Tim

to add, Correct me if I am wrong please but
30 racks (4*30) =120.
presuming these are 12 volt batteries ? that is a total of 720 cells ? As mentioned above 72 cells total is about the limit :smile:
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby Kwaka on Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:16 am

I would agree with Tim.

If our understanding is correct; the number of strings you propose is possible but in theory not the best option and definitely in practice you will have issues with voltage balancing, equalisations etc.

As mentioned aim for larger capacity cells and fewer of them. As for the other gear you propose these are good choices but review requirements (capacity, number of etc) again if you change the battery config.

Good luck. Cheers Greg
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby cyrax on Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:13 pm

Hi all,

Please how many charge controllers can i connect to an inverter system via a battery??? The highest i have seen on the outback adverts are 2. can i go higher?

I have a very big battery bank for a solar farm. Please what do you suggest???
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Re: Multiple Charge Controllers

Postby blackswan555 on Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:07 pm

Please how many charge controllers can i connect to an inverter system via a battery??? The highest i have seen on the outback adverts are 2. can i go higher?


Theoretically,,,As many as you want, The only issue being battery temp compensation, I am not sure if there is any limit on the amount of CCs on the latest HUB 10, But presuming there is not, 10 per HUB 10, (they would all share 1 temp sensor) Or if that is a problem, Just run a Remote temp sensor on each CC,

Tim
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