Tuning and additional info

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Tuning and additional info

Postby JRHill on Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Two weeks now since I added the FlexNet DC (and fixed my screw-ups) and 4 weeks into a new bank of batteries, I've got all kinds of data. The system is behaving differently and I understand why, kind of. But I'm still trying to get my hands around the details and how to deal with it.. Tuning. Planning for tuning. So I did a Google search "FlexNet DC Tuning." This came up:

http://legacy.outbackpower.com/pdf/tech ... rating.pdf

Wow. Thanks : Keira Earhart. Too bad it's from 2011, although it's much more than was in the FlexNet DC box/manual. Surely the "Further Reading" section has changed.

BTW, Keira, cute title!
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JRHill
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My RE system: -House: FM 80, VFX 3648, FlexnetDC, FlexWare xformer, Mate 3 / Hub, WattPlot/, 2925w SunTech 195, Trojan L16RE-B Batteries. Backup 1: Champion 75531i 3100, backup 2: 11kw Miller Bobcat;
-Well: Grundfos 11-SQF-2 pump, controller & AC switch (CU200, IO101), Morningstar 15a/48vdc Controller, 780w SunTech 195, Trojan golf cart batteries.
-All running since July '11 with no critical problems.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby larrywa on Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:52 pm

Thank you very much for that.

Most of it I have figured out by trial and error but having some actual OB documentation really helps.
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Battery:48v @ 130Ahr Crown batteries, deep cycle <$380 for 6.25kWh

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Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby blackswan555 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:09 am

Found this site other day, some useful stuff http://outbackpower.force.com/pkb_Home? ... FLEXnet_DC

Remember ALL ( not just OB) battery monitors are only as good as they are set-up and will drift over time, Important specifics are not taken into consideration in their calculations (Bat temp & Peukert's law) I do not recommend letting it control charging for a few months, during this time calibrate FNDC to SG, IF you ever let it take control, Check SG's often to confirm SOC reading is correct, A 1% error daily over 6 weeks could end very badly :-)

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby larrywa on Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:52 pm

blackswan555 wrote:Found this site other day, some useful stuff http://outbackpower.force.com/pkb_Home? ... FLEXnet_DC

Remember ALL ( not just OB) battery monitors are only as good as they are set-up and will drift over time, Important specifics are not taken into consideration in their calculations (Bat temp & Peukert's law) I do not recommend letting it control charging for a few months, during this time calibrate FNDC to SG, IF you ever let it take control, Check SG's often to confirm SOC reading is correct, A 1% error daily over 6 weeks could end very badly :-)

Tim

The FN-DC SOC corrects itself everyday when the Bulk/Absorb cycle forces the SOC to 100%.

The errors are not cumulative and should get corrected each day when the set parameters are met.
larrywa
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Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:25 am
My RE system: FlexPower Two
2 x GVFX3648s,
2 x FM80s,
FNDC w/3 shunts,
Mate3 v3.015.005 (works excellent!)
Hub 10.3,
PV:1000W east@45, 600W west@45, 2400W south@19 deg.
Battery:48v @ 130Ahr Crown batteries, deep cycle <$380 for 6.25kWh

ISY994i HA, Insteon, X10, Philips Hue, MiLight bulbs & RGBW strips
WebControl 8 as weather station stuffing
ISY994 variables via REST interface

Raspberry Pi3 x 2, Pi1 B+

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby JRHill on Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:21 pm

Thanks for the confirmation Larry.

"A 1% error daily over 6 weeks could end very badly" kind'a bothered me. 1% +/- a few points is pretty slim. As I mentioned in a different post, my goal is to make things simpler/smarter/more intuitive - not to add more complexity but for the benefit of others if I wasn't here.

Best,
Jim
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JRHill
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Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: South central WA
My RE system: -House: FM 80, VFX 3648, FlexnetDC, FlexWare xformer, Mate 3 / Hub, WattPlot/, 2925w SunTech 195, Trojan L16RE-B Batteries. Backup 1: Champion 75531i 3100, backup 2: 11kw Miller Bobcat;
-Well: Grundfos 11-SQF-2 pump, controller & AC switch (CU200, IO101), Morningstar 15a/48vdc Controller, 780w SunTech 195, Trojan golf cart batteries.
-All running since July '11 with no critical problems.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby JRHill on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:49 pm

BTW,

Each day on OpticsRE I see these margins to the tune of: 160.34 aHr in from the solar; 33.3 aHr load. I can't make sense of these numbers.

TIA,
Jim
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JRHill
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Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: South central WA
My RE system: -House: FM 80, VFX 3648, FlexnetDC, FlexWare xformer, Mate 3 / Hub, WattPlot/, 2925w SunTech 195, Trojan L16RE-B Batteries. Backup 1: Champion 75531i 3100, backup 2: 11kw Miller Bobcat;
-Well: Grundfos 11-SQF-2 pump, controller & AC switch (CU200, IO101), Morningstar 15a/48vdc Controller, 780w SunTech 195, Trojan golf cart batteries.
-All running since July '11 with no critical problems.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby blackswan555 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:39 pm

The FN-DC SOC corrects itself everyday when the Bulk/Absorb cycle forces the SOC to 100%.
The errors are not cumulative and should get corrected each day when the set parameters are met.


It is inaccurate at reading the batteries due to aforementioned lack of Temp & Peukert compensation, It "May" read 100% on the display, what is in the batteries can be different, Check SG's regularly,

"A 1% error daily over 6 weeks could end very badly" kind'a bothered me. 1% +/- a few points is pretty slim. As I mentioned in a different post, my goal is to make things simpler/smarter/more intuitive - not to add more complexity but for the benefit of others if I wasn't here.


Sorry :-) But it is a problem, People install them & think what it is telling you is "the truth" & then blindly trust it without checking SG's, A common mistake being that the batteries are not FULLY charged when installed "it" thinks they are, Unless you have done a full till SG's stop rising charge beforehand, they are not 100%, What ever settings you put in it today will not be right in a few months time as you have new batteries on top of the other issues, They take time to "run in" ( about 70x50% DOD cycles)

I suggest you calibrate it as good as you can but leave charge settings controlled by time to start, To determine time, set long absorb, check SG's every half ish hour,when they stop rising, bat's are charged, time taken add half hour is absorb time, Check & record SG's frequently to get a good picture of what they do over the next few weeks, See how the SG's do compared to what the FNDC tells you, Once you are happy they match, let it drive :-) (The SG's are right, The FNDC is guessing, trust the SG)

FWIW, I run 4 sites with FNDC, none of them are allowed to drive :-) It's a golden oldie, Is it better to have a watch that you know is wrong but not by how much or a stopped watch, at least you know it is right twice a day :-)

A tech'y bit as un tech'y as I can be :-) The FNDC is basically an Amp counter, It counts amps into and out of batteries, The problem with counting these amps is batteries do not always store the same amount & how hard you take it out will also vary capacity,
eg Drive your car 50 miles at 50mph & you will use "this much" fuel, Drive the same 50 miles at 150mph you would use a significant amount more, Batteries are similar, drive them hard, the tank will empty faster, The FNDC does not take this into consideration, A batteries capacity will also vary with temperature & just to add to it, as batteries age their characteristics change,

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby JRHill on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:40 pm

OK, Outback, we need a SG sensor to the FNDC. Then all we need to do is average and/or equalize.

Damn, that was hard to resolve. ;-) I'm a good American - just task someone else with responsibilities.

Tim, lots of different views. Thanks for your time to describe your reasoning.

Jim
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JRHill
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Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: South central WA
My RE system: -House: FM 80, VFX 3648, FlexnetDC, FlexWare xformer, Mate 3 / Hub, WattPlot/, 2925w SunTech 195, Trojan L16RE-B Batteries. Backup 1: Champion 75531i 3100, backup 2: 11kw Miller Bobcat;
-Well: Grundfos 11-SQF-2 pump, controller & AC switch (CU200, IO101), Morningstar 15a/48vdc Controller, 780w SunTech 195, Trojan golf cart batteries.
-All running since July '11 with no critical problems.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby blackswan555 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:59 am

OK, Outback, we need a SG sensor to the FNDC


http://www.jsaphotonics.com/ State of charge sensing, Stephan & I built digital hydrometers & had charge controlled (gen run) by SG using an Arduino processor, Sadly could not get the sensors reliable enough, There is a post on here somewhere about it,
Then all we need to do is average and/or equalize.
That is how I do it, use the SG's stop rising time + half hour (it will be around 3 to 4 hrs) The extra half hour gives a little headroom, Check SG's regularly to start off & adjust time as required,
Aim for 50% DOD, about 1.200 sg low to 1.27ish sg,full, it is a good idea to start a log now, Record temp and SG's of each cell, EQ is due after 100 cycles or when cell readings have drifted by manufactures spec,

Tim
Last edited by blackswan555 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
blackswan555
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Posts: 2567
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:50 am
Location: Ibiza Spain,
My RE system: Other peoples, VFX "E" versions, FLA`s, Generators.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby JRHill on Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:38 pm

blackswan555 wrote:
http://www.jsaphotonics.com/ State of charge sensing, Unicorno & I built digital hydrometers & had charge controlled (gen run) by SG using an Arduino processor, Sadly could not get the sensors reliable enough


Reviewed the site - the sensor would be pretty cool - entered a "contact us" note for more info. When you say it had reliability problems, was it related to precision or accuracy (or both)?

Best,
Jim
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JRHill
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Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: South central WA
My RE system: -House: FM 80, VFX 3648, FlexnetDC, FlexWare xformer, Mate 3 / Hub, WattPlot/, 2925w SunTech 195, Trojan L16RE-B Batteries. Backup 1: Champion 75531i 3100, backup 2: 11kw Miller Bobcat;
-Well: Grundfos 11-SQF-2 pump, controller & AC switch (CU200, IO101), Morningstar 15a/48vdc Controller, 780w SunTech 195, Trojan golf cart batteries.
-All running since July '11 with no critical problems.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby blackswan555 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:37 am

The sensor's are "VERY" fragile & do not travel well, Also very sensitive to outside light sources, It is filled with a fluid, Do not think it liked air travel, fair play to the JSA they sent me 5 before "we" got one working,
Once working on a "shed" test rig, (car battery, relay with bat charger & load driven by SG, read by sensor & switched with arduinio, temp compensated if we wanted) it was good for a while but the sensor got dirty quickly, Another problem was light hitting the batteries would give false readings, (I had it doing precise 50% to 100% charge/discharge cycles by SG for a few weeks)

If the sensors could be made robust and reliable, be a no brain'er :-)

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
blackswan555
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Posts: 2567
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:50 am
Location: Ibiza Spain,
My RE system: Other peoples, VFX "E" versions, FLA`s, Generators.

Re: Tuning and additional info

Postby blackswan555 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:50 am

My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
blackswan555
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Posts: 2567
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:50 am
Location: Ibiza Spain,
My RE system: Other peoples, VFX "E" versions, FLA`s, Generators.


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