It's all fun and games..

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raysun
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Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:53 am

JRHill wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:29 am
Mr Raysun, I couldn't be happier for your initial reactions to the new batteries. I thought I had heard that they backed off a bit from the warranty requirements I expressed some time back. From the current warranty doc it seems they have backed off from the system designer part with the documentation. But they still require a licensed electrician's ID/#. Ironically, they don't require that the electrician can demonstrate skills in RE systems. So what is verified are codes, wire sizes, connections, etc.. Gosh, haven't we seen examples of local electricians screwing up a system. But the wire was right!

I try to look at it from both sides. At the same time my 'ol bank is making the genset fire off three times a day - it should be once per day. But the gas is cheaper than batteries at this time. At the same time L16re-A or B's are hard to get Dang. This battery thing just keeps getting further into the woods. And, duh, that's where we live.

[copied and pasted if I took to long][and it took it!]

Jim
I would not have made the switch had the declining battery capacity not reared its ugly head.

I take the battery warranty with a grain of salt, a whole shovel-full of salt, actually. There's plenty of ways for the manufacturer to say "Not our fault", and if it got down to that, it would be an expensive argument to win.

If they want a licensed electrician to "certify" the install, then so be it. I'll have my electrician look over my work (everything to the left of AC OUT) and make sure it's copacetic with his work (everything to the right of AC OUT).

I'm documenting my part, and can show every aspect of sizing, siting, and operation exceeds their requirements.

I'm keeping my part of the bargain.

In the end, it comes down to the good will, and longevity, of the vendor.

JRHill
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Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by JRHill » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:40 pm

raysun wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:53 am
]
of the vendor.
So many thoughts. So many interactions. I hope you have an ethical vendor. But you have ten years to factor it out.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:52 pm

JRHill wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:40 pm
raysun wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:53 am
]
of the vendor.
So many thoughts. So many interactions. I hope you have an ethical vendor. But you have ten years to factor it out.
SimpliPhi, we hope they build good products and stay solvent!

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:32 pm

Lithium, FNDC and Charged Parameters Met.

I set up battery charging in accordance with an app note from SimpliPhi on Outback integration.

Most all the specs made sense, but I wondered about the settings for the FNDC re.: Charged Parameters Met.

I'm using Absorb Voltage = 56.4 and Absorb Time = 0.1H

The specified parameters for Charged Parameters Met are: Charged Voltage = 54, Charged Time = 1 minute, Charged Return Amps (1.5 x 6) = 9A.

Today, my concern about these values was dramatically illustrated. My battery was at 71% SoC when PV charging started. The SoC rose to 75%, and battery voltage to 54V, when a load on the inverter drew a substantial amount of the PV current - enough so that the residual for charging was below 9A. Sure enough, 1 minute later, the SoC jumped to 100% even though the battery was still down > 100AH.

Fortunately, I'm not using Global Charge Termination, and the charge controllers remained in bulk charging and will do so until the battery voltage rises to 56.4V.

When the FNDC reaches Charged Parameters Met, it sets the SoC at 100%, an inconvenience, but it also sets Corrected Net Battery AH = 0. For this charging session, I've lost track of how much charge is needed to reach actual full charge and won't have an SoC indication that makes sense until full charge has been achieved.

Needless to say I'm not going to rely on Charged Parameters Met for anything, in fact will set it so it is in essence, disabled. The algorithm worked fine for Lead Acid, but not for Lithium.

We need an FNDC-Li.

**EDIT**
After I had a bit more time to focus on it, the Charged Parameters Met function can be configured to work correctly. Initially, I did a too-literal read of the integration guide, and set the Charged Voltage to 54V. It actually should be set much higher in my system, and is now set to 56V, the conventional 0.4V below the "Absorb" voltage.

I watched the end of charge cycle yesterday, with Global Charge Termination enabled, and sure enough, 56V @ 9A was "spot on". Charge was terminated with Corrected Net Battery at -1AH.

Though I have yet to try it, the "Absorb" voltage is 56.4 for both Charge controllers and Inverter chargers. Since I've opted for the "bulk until full" charge method (Absorb Time = 0.1H) I expect there will be little need for charging priority should both charger types be running simultaneously. I will experiment to confirm this.
Last edited by raysun on Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:41 pm

20201015_123651.jpg
Overachiever solar panels.

I have two REC Alpha "Twin Peaks" 440W solar panels connected to this charge controller, and got the output above. 994W from an 880W array is pretty good, I guess.

I originally planned on a 10 panel array on an FM80, but may need to rethink that.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:52 am

20201021_065004.jpg
Overcoming the effects of chronic lead exposure by taking a daily dose of lithium. I feel great! 🤣🤣

42% SoC is a good thing.

User avatar
David LeBow
OutBack Management
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Location: Bellingham, WA

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by David LeBow » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:17 am

Never thought that this forum would end up being a source of mental health humor, but whoomp, there it is.
David LeBow
Sr. Director, Software Engineering


Alpha Technologies Inc. / OutBack Power Technologies
3767 Alpha Way Bellingham WA 98226 USA
http://www.alpha.com

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1804
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:49 am

raysun wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:32 pm
Lithium, FNDC and Charged Parameters Met.

I set up battery charging in accordance with an app note from SimpliPhi on Outback integration.

Most all the specs made sense, but I wondered about the settings for the FNDC re.: Charged Parameters Met.

I'm using Absorb Voltage = 56.4 and Absorb Time = 0.1H

The specified parameters for Charged Parameters Met are: Charged Voltage = 54, Charged Time = 1 minute, Charged Return Amps (1.5 x 6) = 9A.

Today, my concern about these values was dramatically illustrated. My battery was at 71% SoC when PV charging started. The SoC rose to 75%, and battery voltage to 54V, when a load on the inverter drew a substantial amount of the PV current - enough so that the residual for charging was below 9A. Sure enough, 1 minute later, the SoC jumped to 100% even though the battery was still down > 100AH.

Fortunately, I'm not using Global Charge Termination, and the charge controllers remained in bulk charging and will do so until the battery voltage rises to 56.4V.

When the FNDC reaches Charged Parameters Met, it sets the SoC at 100%, an inconvenience, but it also sets Corrected Net Battery AH = 0. For this charging session, I've lost track of how much charge is needed to reach actual full charge and won't have an SoC indication that makes sense until full charge has been achieved.

Needless to say I'm not going to rely on Charged Parameters Met for anything, in fact will set it so it is in essence, disabled. The algorithm worked fine for Lead Acid, but not for Lithium.

We need an FNDC-Li.

**EDIT**
After I had a bit more time to focus on it, the Charged Parameters Met function can be configured to work correctly. Initially, I did a too-literal read of the integration guide, and set the Charged Voltage to 54V. It actually should be set much higher in my system, and is now set to 56V, the conventional 0.4V below the "Absorb" voltage.

I watched the end of charge cycle yesterday, with Global Charge Termination enabled, and sure enough, 56V @ 9A was "spot on". Charge was terminated with Corrected Net Battery at -1AH.

Though I have yet to try it, the "Absorb" voltage is 56.4 for both Charge controllers and Inverter chargers. Since I've opted for the "bulk until full" charge method (Absorb Time = 0.1H) I expect there will be little need for charging priority should both charger types be running simultaneously. I will experiment to confirm this.
Ray - Your return amps seems a bit low based on this forum post by Mark Walters of OB (tech support?). http://outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic ... 47&t=14975

I'm using 12A as return amps and 54.4V for my absorb setting as Mark seems to advise (with 3 hours 15 minutes as max absorb time). Can't think that just because I'm running a Skybox and you're using an FNDC that these settings would differ for us, but...

Anyway, below is a screenshot from my dashboard today showing an absorb cycle using grid plus PV with my settings. Note I started with SOC at 94% at 6:00pm yesterday (10/20/20) and between then and 9:00 am today (when I started the absorb) my battery used 15 × .15kwh = 2.25kwh (no grid connection overthat period). Grid plus PV minus load* (4.18 + .85 - .99) = 4.04 kwh used to bring my battery up to 100% SOC. Optics shows battery got 2.82kwh. Not sure exactly what all this means but I do feel confident my battery is fully charged now.
Screenshot_20201021-133652_Samsung Internet.jpg
*Note the load kwh includes some AC coupling power input, which reduces the load figure by the amount of PV input.

Something to ponder :-k
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:32 am

Mike,

We are taking slightly different approaches to charging, and are getting input from different, and seemingly divergent sources.

The settings I'm using come from the SimpliPhi/OB integration guide published by SimpliPhi.

After listening to a couple of the SimpliPhi webinars its clear they advocate an either/or approach, and went as far as muddying the water with off-hand comments that a fairly broad range of target voltages were A-OK.

That just about threw me off lithium until I did some more digging, it turns out 3rd party research agrees. 100% SoC can be achieved over a fairly broad range of target voltages.

I have yet to try the "long absorb" method, but in the "short absorb" method, the battery voltage stays around 54.3-54.6 for a good long period before rising rapidly to 56.0-56.4 volts, at which time the charge current declines asymptoticly.

Outback/SimpliPhi have variously quoted Charged Return Amps of 1.5 and 2.0A per monoblock. The integration guide I used specifies 1.5A. In the "short absorb" cycle 1.5A is reached about 5 minutes into the 6 minute Absorb Time, so it seemed to align with the spec.

I'm a proponent in "leaving a little charge on the table" with lithium, and may end up using the 2.0A value in the future.

When I have time, I'm going to study all three of the published integration guides. I suspect it will serve to muddy the waters even more before I feel I can see things clearly.

It would be really helpful for the community if Outback and SimpliPhi got together to co-host a webinar on integration best practices. We users with these batteries would appreciate the effort.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1804
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:22 pm

It would be really helpful for the community if Outback and SimpliPhi got together to co-host a webinar on integration best practices. We users with these batteries would appreciate the effort.
Agree!
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:42 pm

20201021_143809.jpg
Thought I'd try a maximum charging rate test.

I saw nearly 7kW from the arrays today. That, with the maximum charge rate from the inverters prompted me to enable Global Charger Control at 225A.

sodamo
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36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
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4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
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Charging Only
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Hub
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Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by sodamo » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:54 pm

I’ll second the OB-SimpliPhi initiative.🤙🤙🤙

Raysun, I never see that voltage. Here is a 5 day graph and as you can see, 54.3 is tops. And screenshots on my settings.
If you could post screenshots of you FNDC and CC, I’d appreciate.
Attachments
DBD91933-5B5D-4D04-A67A-D7EBC07B5D6C.png
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David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:29 pm

20201021_163130.jpg
20201021_163409.jpg
I've only had the battery in service for 8 days, and the only time it went through to Charge Termination was when I commissioned it - 12 hours on generator at 40AH.

Once it reached 54, it took hours to get to 56.4. Today, I kicked on the generator at 54V. With charging current reaching peaks of 190A, it got to 56.4 relatively quickly, but only one charge controller went into Absorb. After a moment the voltage dropped 0.2, so I manually terminated the inverters' charging.

The battery had all the AH returned +2AH, so I figured that full enough. The charging did not complete to the set parameters, however.

I'll try again tomorrow, perhaps.

*EDIT*
I notice the system reports Charged Parameters Met from yesterday's charging session. Certainly enough charge was put into the battery, but the Charged Return Amps were not reached. When the generator/inverter charging was shut down manually, the charge controllers remained in bulk with relatively low output due to cloud cover.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:02 pm

20201022_105939.jpg
Screenshot_20201022-110337_Chrome.jpg
Today was a more "normal" day. PV charging only. Nice to have a sunny morning and 75A of charging current.

Battery progressed to "Absorb" and though I missed the end of charge, presumed met Charged Return Amps.

JRHill
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My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by JRHill » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:38 pm

Those are great results. I hate to see all that wasted production. I still want it beamed up here.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:34 pm

20201022_123231.jpg
I can put 1.5kW on the 2.5gHz band. All you gotta do is figure out how to get it.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:35 pm

20201022_133357.jpg
LFP cells don't like to do float, but when they must, its nice to see a starting Float current of 800mA for a 450AH battery.

Actually, the float behavior was interesting. I'm going to see if it repeats.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:16 pm

sodamo wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:54 pm
I’ll second the OB-SimpliPhi initiative.🤙🤙🤙

Raysun, I never see that voltage. Here is a 5 day graph and as you can see, 54.3 is tops. And screenshots on my settings.
If you could post screenshots of you FNDC and CC, I’d appreciate.
Actually, looking at the battery capacity and usage profile, the SoC is just about ideal. 😉

900AH is a big bucket. It takes a lot to fill it. It takes a lot to drain it.

150AH usage can be drawn from as low as 35% SoC before the battery needs charging.

IMO, lithium loves partial state of charge. Keeping them above 20% is all thats really needed. If there's enough in the bucket to draw thats good.

The biggest issue, IMO, is the FNDC will drift with repeated partial charges/discharges, and full charge occasionally will help sync it. With such a big battery and relatively modest useage, there's some "elbow room" to accommodate drift.

Maybe a monthly generator/solar charging session to top up the tank.

When I commissioned my 450AH battery charging from a single FXR3048 @ 40ADC continuous took 12H from 30% SoC.

Two 3048s @ 80A does a good job, cutting the time to completion.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:27 pm

Screenshot_20201023-142458_Chrome.jpg
I never thought I'd say a battery charges too fast, but there you are.

I'm going to seriously come up with some alternate loads.

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1804
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by Mike Curran » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:49 pm

Ray, I'm curious - why is your "to battery" greater than your solar? Did you run your generator?
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:39 pm

Mike Curran wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:49 pm
Ray, I'm curious - why is your "to battery" greater than your solar? Did you run your generator?
No generator. I asked that early on with my first FX / FM system, and as it was explained to me, the Solar is reported by the FM controllers, and the To Battery is reported by the FNDC as current across the shunt. Of the two, the FNDC's readings are more precise than the FMs.

I've never independently tested that explanation.

JRHill
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Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by JRHill » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:29 pm

So there was a musical chairs of solar stuff from one to another to another. You were going to help them and vv. So how did that all work out? Are you all still friends? (Just teasing.) Frankly I thought it was really cool. Cooperating neighbors are more important than family that is not close by. I'd love to hear a success story.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:14 pm

JRHill wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:29 pm
So there was a musical chairs of solar stuff from one to another to another. You were going to help them and vv. So how did that all work out? Are you all still friends? (Just teasing.) Frankly I thought it was really cool. Cooperating neighbors are more important than family that is not close by. I'd love to hear a success story.
This has two purposes: to help him out, and to help me out.

His original system went to another resident in the area. Will got it installed and running. We had the whole system mounted on board and wired into the panels and battery, so the move was easy. The new owner will be replacing the battery in the near future, if you get my drift.

Will got my FlexPower One/FX3048T with my old 200NC battery, and 8 of my old solar panels. Stepping up from a decent, if smallish 1kW system to a 3kW Outback system is a game changer for him. Appliances run without generator assist. AC water pump. No need to think he needs to unplug his refrigerator at night.

I got the FP2/FXR3048A with 6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 as an upgrade. Keeping the same inverter/charge controller/monitor architecture was no accident.

My young friend has motivation to learn his system, and in doing so, my system. Its good to have backup. If we decide to take a trip, we have someone who can look after things in detail. If I decide to take a very long trip, we have someone who can help keep things on track.

JRHill
Forum Czar
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by JRHill » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:21 pm

I've scanned your posts and haven't seen anything addressing battery recharge rates vs array input. So these batteries are not substantially affected by a lower amperage recharge compared to the overall size of the bank? I.E., occasional heavy draw downs and heavy recharges are not a health issue like they are with FLA? Or is yet to be determined?

Best,
Jim

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by gtarolli » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:39 pm

I have 6 Simpliphi batteries, from 1-3 years old. I used to use 56v Absorb for .1min, but their newest recommendation is for 54.8 for 1 hr. for the new 3.8 batts. I emailed their tech support and he said I could use those settings for my older 3.4 batts, or anything in between. I chose 55v for 1 hour. Here's my observations for this setting.

First I have 9.1kw solar which during peaks can generate about 10kw or 200 amps, which is the limit for the batteries. However, that never occurs before 11am when the batteries have already been charging for a while. If I get a surge of 7-8kw from PV the voltage quickly reaches 55v and Absorb mode kicks in an limits the charging. So this is a built-in charge limiter. While it does sometimes leave a few charging amps on the table, if that happens, it is usually on a good solar day so its not a big deal. The charge reduction due to absorb mode doesn't get significant until around 90-95% SOC. You can see the amps decrease as the batteries are nearly full, and by the time I reach 98% SOC, the charging is probably down to 20 amps or less. I figure Float mode will push the last few amps in. Once in a while I rebulk after going into FLOAT, and if there's good sun, the voltage quickly goes to 55v again and charging goes way down, as the batteries really are quite full.

I have Charge Factor set to 95% (so as to not prematurely reach 100% SOC), and return amps set to 30. Charged voltage is 54.8. I tweak these a little as I have the aforementioned problem that FNDC thinks charge params are met way early. My theory is you want charge params to be met when you either are almost at the end of absorb, or when you go silent after absorb and the charging is 0 while the voltage drops.

I've set my temp comp limited range to [54,55] and set float and absorb in the FMs to 53.5 and 56.4, that keeps the temp. comp. target to [54,55] and I can still leave the RTS connected to monitor temp in my "closet".

When charging, most of the charging will occur between 54 and 55v, with a few KW of PV charging the voltage quickly rises to 53-54v , e.g. at 55% SOC and then slowly rises to 55v. The voltage can vary .5v to 1v as charging varies from 4kw to 9kw. So most of the amps are sunk into the batts between 54 and 55v. Similar for discharge, but between 52 and 53v for small (1kw loads). After charging stops, voltage quickly drops to 53v and then drops very very slowly until 52v.

I have my LBCO set very low as there's very few times a year when my SOC drops below 30% and voltage drops down to around 50v. I manually start my generator, so I want a little grace period. I figure a few deep cycles shouldn't hurt too much. As you probably know, once these batts go below 51v , the voltage drops pretty quickly and once they go below 50v it dives! I used to be able to go down to 15-20% SOC in the worst case, but now I can barely get below 30%. The voltage drops so fast, I have to run to my generator. I need to invest in an auto-start I guess. Anyway, after a few more "chores" I need to contact Simpliphi to try to diagnose the issue - maybe there's one bad battery and I can turn it off and run with 5 for a few days and see if I can reach low SOC, and try to isolate the bad battery. Or maybe they just are wearing out?

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