Temp Sensor Question

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Temp Sensor Question

Postby Onfoot on Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:04 pm

I have an Outback temp sensor attached to my FX3048 master inverter. Among other things, this allows me to see the 'temperature adjusted' battery voltage on the Mate when the batteries are being charged.

My assumption has been (based on my reading of the manuals) that one temp. sensor attached to the FX master inverter would allow any other chargers (like my FM80 and MX60) to take the battery temps into account. But this appears to not be the case. Today I was taking advantage of the sunlight to do an EQ charge. And I noticed what I had noticed on a previous solar EQ cycle--that while the Mate gave the temp. compensated voltage as 62.4, the FM80 and MX60 were showing battery voltage at 61.5. Thus the CC's were still in bulk EQ mode when, had the charge been coming from the genset, the FX inverters would have been counting down the EQ time.

I have two questions: First is, should I be concerned? Perhaps when all is said and done it doesn't matter unduly--but I do worry about the CC's not being able to take battery temperature into account, esp. during the hotter summer months. Secondly, as I have a second Outback temp sensor sitting idle, would it mix up the system to attach it one of the CC's? (If so, I presume the FM80 would be the choice?)

Grateful as always for the wisdom of the community. (Though still waiting for confirmation about my diversion load thinking in my last post...)

Easter blessings to all.

Barrett
Onfoot
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Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
My RE system: 2 FX 3048T inverters in parallel.
1 MX60 plus 1 Flexmax80 Charge Controllers for solar array.
1 Hub, 1 Mate
18 Helio 255W solar panels on 3 racks--4590W feeding Flexmax 80
12 250 LG solar panels on 2 racks--3000W feeding MX60
2.5kW Proven Wind Turbine on 90' Tower
6kW, Single phase Newage Stamford generator on Kubota 905 Diesel
24 2v Surrette KS27 1435AHr (@20 hr) batteries
Trace TM500A Battery Status Monitor

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby gww on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:14 pm

Barrett
I can't answer your question but I hope someone can as I am curious.
Good luck
gww
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm
My RE system: 1. installed
2. 5640 watts mx panels
3. 2 axial flux Hugh Piggot 500 watt turbines
5. 2 gvfx 3648 inverters
6. 1 mx 60 charge controller, 1 fm 80 and 1 morningstar ts60 pmw
7. outback mount, panel and sub panel
8. mate
9. 4 place hub
10. couple more cc, doc wattson
11. 800 ah, 48 volt fork truck battery

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby Onfoot on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:26 pm

gww wrote:Barrett
I can't answer your question but I hope someone can as I am curious.
Good luck


Thanks. I called OB this afternoon and we have begun a conversation. I will post what I find out. (The support technician wants to consult his colleagues.) So stay tuned!
Onfoot
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
My RE system: 2 FX 3048T inverters in parallel.
1 MX60 plus 1 Flexmax80 Charge Controllers for solar array.
1 Hub, 1 Mate
18 Helio 255W solar panels on 3 racks--4590W feeding Flexmax 80
12 250 LG solar panels on 2 racks--3000W feeding MX60
2.5kW Proven Wind Turbine on 90' Tower
6kW, Single phase Newage Stamford generator on Kubota 905 Diesel
24 2v Surrette KS27 1435AHr (@20 hr) batteries
Trace TM500A Battery Status Monitor

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby gww on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:31 pm

I shall be watching.
Thanks
gww
gww
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm
My RE system: 1. installed
2. 5640 watts mx panels
3. 2 axial flux Hugh Piggot 500 watt turbines
5. 2 gvfx 3648 inverters
6. 1 mx 60 charge controller, 1 fm 80 and 1 morningstar ts60 pmw
7. outback mount, panel and sub panel
8. mate
9. 4 place hub
10. couple more cc, doc wattson
11. 800 ah, 48 volt fork truck battery

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby rfonda on Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:32 am

I could be very wrong on this, but my understanding was that the temp sensor data is "shared" between the CC and the Inverter via the mate and the hub. Can anyone shed light on this?
(8) Kyrocera 130 watt 12V Panels, (1) MX60 24V Controller, (1) FX60 Inv., 4 Port Hub/Mate, (4) 6 Volt Trojan L16 Batteries
rfonda
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Location: Joshua Tree, CA

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby SteveHiggins on Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:05 am

The Charge controllers at least the newer revs of firmware take in account temps when eq'ing. I can't remember when the change was.

The Inverter never have taken in consideration temp when in EQ and probably never will.

Normally when in eq it's only going to be for a few hours so its not normally an issue unless you are eq'ing all the time.

The only time you should EQ is when your SG's are getting more than .2-.4 of a measurement off of each other.
Steve Higgins
Technical Services Director- Surrette Battery Company

\
SteveHiggins
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Location: Seattle

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby Onfoot on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:52 am

Appreciate the input from all.

A few comments in reply:

To rfonda, your understanding is my understanding and reflects how I have understood the manuals. This is why I am having the conversation with OB.

To SteveHiggins: Very nice to have the battery mfr. perspective. Thanks! What I read in the Mate manual is this: "batt temp: this value, which reflects the battery temperature, is used by the charger when an RTS is connected to the FX" (p. 44 in Mate manual).

The temp. sensor plugs into my Master FX inverter which allows the charging to be adjusted according to temperature. I have watched this take place. Almost two years ago, my lack of understanding about my batteries had led to heavy sulphation. To work at restoring them, I took them through a series of carefully monitored eq cycles. As the battery temps rose, I could observe the charge amps backing off. (I can report that, with lots of good advice from this forum, my batteries seem to be in quite good condition, now going on 11 years and counting.)

I do monitor the SG of the batteries. But I also run a 2hr. EQ cycle about once every 6 weeks or so, irrespective of SG (which typically is within .05 to .15 across the bank).
Onfoot
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
My RE system: 2 FX 3048T inverters in parallel.
1 MX60 plus 1 Flexmax80 Charge Controllers for solar array.
1 Hub, 1 Mate
18 Helio 255W solar panels on 3 racks--4590W feeding Flexmax 80
12 250 LG solar panels on 2 racks--3000W feeding MX60
2.5kW Proven Wind Turbine on 90' Tower
6kW, Single phase Newage Stamford generator on Kubota 905 Diesel
24 2v Surrette KS27 1435AHr (@20 hr) batteries
Trace TM500A Battery Status Monitor

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby Onfoot on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:11 am

Had a helpful call from OB technical support this morning, directing me to p. 103 of the FM60/FM80 manual, where there is a section on temperature compensation and charging. Don't know how I had missed it, but it very clearly states:

"The FLEXmax controller, when equipped with the Remote Temperature Sensor (RTS) will compensate for temperature. The RTS is attached to a single battery near the center of the bank. When charging, the RTS will increase or decrease the charge voltage by 5 mV per degree Celsius per battery cell. This setting affects the Absorbing and Float set points. Equalization is not compensated in the FLEXmax."

So what I was observing is normal. I am once again impressed by and grateful for the OB technical support folks.
Onfoot
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
My RE system: 2 FX 3048T inverters in parallel.
1 MX60 plus 1 Flexmax80 Charge Controllers for solar array.
1 Hub, 1 Mate
18 Helio 255W solar panels on 3 racks--4590W feeding Flexmax 80
12 250 LG solar panels on 2 racks--3000W feeding MX60
2.5kW Proven Wind Turbine on 90' Tower
6kW, Single phase Newage Stamford generator on Kubota 905 Diesel
24 2v Surrette KS27 1435AHr (@20 hr) batteries
Trace TM500A Battery Status Monitor

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby gww on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:36 pm

I remember reading that also but didn't "apparently" pay enough attention to your original post. I missed that you were talking about equalization. I am still thankfull for your follow through and comunication as maby it will be ingrained in my small brain from this point forward.
Thanks
gww

PS I do hate that I just bought a new fm80 and I have to go online to read the manual as it doesn't come with one.
gww
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm
My RE system: 1. installed
2. 5640 watts mx panels
3. 2 axial flux Hugh Piggot 500 watt turbines
5. 2 gvfx 3648 inverters
6. 1 mx 60 charge controller, 1 fm 80 and 1 morningstar ts60 pmw
7. outback mount, panel and sub panel
8. mate
9. 4 place hub
10. couple more cc, doc wattson
11. 800 ah, 48 volt fork truck battery

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby mhtmr on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:23 pm

I tried using the RTS sensor on my Mx60 but had to give up. It worked perfectly in the sense that it reduced the absorb voltage set point exactly as designed (and even recommended by Trojan) for the slightly elevated ambient temp. However, the reduced absorb voltage resulted in an abnormally low SPg. and no amount of absorb time brought the state of charge above 85%. This was on brand new Trojan T105 batteries. I was mystified since the old batteries had worked fine before I bought the RTS but I figured I might get longer life if I "did it right" with the new ones.
Finally, after posts to Outback and other forums, a consult with Trojan support confirmed that it is critical that the SPg. be brought up to full charge (1.28) regardless of the temperature. So the RTS is disconnected and the new batteries are performing perfectly. I really would like to use the RTS but the result hasn't worked, at least for me.
I'd really like to hear from someone who is using the RTS and isn't experiencing reduced SPg.

Marty
Xcalak Mexico
mhtmr
Member
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:16 pm

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby Onfoot on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:25 pm

mhtmr wrote:I'd really like to hear from someone who is using the RTS and isn't experiencing reduced SPg.


Marty I have always used the RTS and have not experienced any issues with absorb SG's.
Onfoot
OutBack Guru
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
My RE system: 2 FX 3048T inverters in parallel.
1 MX60 plus 1 Flexmax80 Charge Controllers for solar array.
1 Hub, 1 Mate
18 Helio 255W solar panels on 3 racks--4590W feeding Flexmax 80
12 250 LG solar panels on 2 racks--3000W feeding MX60
2.5kW Proven Wind Turbine on 90' Tower
6kW, Single phase Newage Stamford generator on Kubota 905 Diesel
24 2v Surrette KS27 1435AHr (@20 hr) batteries
Trace TM500A Battery Status Monitor

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby domatic on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:04 pm

Curious to know what kind of temperatures you were reaching that would keep the batteries from properly charging.

Thanks!
Luke



mhtmr wrote:I tried using the RTS sensor on my Mx60 but had to give up. It worked perfectly in the sense that it reduced the absorb voltage set point exactly as designed (and even recommended by Trojan) for the slightly elevated ambient temp. However, the reduced absorb voltage resulted in an abnormally low SPg. and no amount of absorb time brought the state of charge above 85%. This was on brand new Trojan T105 batteries. I was mystified since the old batteries had worked fine before I bought the RTS but I figured I might get longer life if I "did it right" with the new ones.
Finally, after posts to Outback and other forums, a consult with Trojan support confirmed that it is critical that the SPg. be brought up to full charge (1.28) regardless of the temperature. So the RTS is disconnected and the new batteries are performing perfectly. I really would like to use the RTS but the result hasn't worked, at least for me.
I'd really like to hear from someone who is using the RTS and isn't experiencing reduced SPg.

Marty
Xcalak Mexico
domatic
Member
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:02 am
My RE system: OFF GRID - 33 x 300w LG Mono Radian 7048 @ 240v 60hz Single Phase - GS Load Center - 2 x Flexmax 80 - Mate3 - 8 x Trojan Industrial IND17 @ 48V, 960 AH - Honda eu6500is on Atkinson MINI-i controller.

Re: Temp Sensor Question

Postby Vic on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:53 pm

Hello Luke,

As you know, this is a fairly old Thread ...

I do wonder if "Marty"'s observation might be a bit of noise.

Marty is in Mexico, and it is possible, that the Absorb voltage should have been set a bit higher than it was, but perhaps, having no Temperature Compensation and the assumed ambient temps (possibly) above Trojan's Reference temperature of 80 degrees F nominal, that the batteries really needed a higher (non-compensated) Absorb AND Float voltage.

Also, about in the time-frame noted by him, Trojan did increase the SG of some of their batteries from about 1.265 to 1.277 - 1.280. This did not affect the Ind line, but, certainly, their L-16s, and quite possibly on the GC-2 (T-105) batteries as well. This could have been an additional factor ... since Marty noted a charging difference with his "new" GC-2s,

Just some guessing, he did note a " slightly elevated ambient temp" when trying to charge the new batteries. FWIW, Vic
4/20/08: 18 Shell SQ 175-106 Vmpp, Stacked 5548 SW+, 1350 AH Surrette 4KS25's, MX-60, Kubota SQ-3250 25 KVA Polyphase Diesel genset. Thanks OutBack for this Forum + the great Support and Service.
Vic
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