Auto gen start instructions?

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Off Grid Applications

Moderators: OutBack, OutBack Moderator Team

Post Reply
rplarry
Forum Guru
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:51 am
Location: Bahia de Los Angeles, Baja Norte, Mex.

Auto gen start instructions?

Post by rplarry » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:58 am

I am interested in setting up my vfx 2812 inverters to start my Kubota diesel gen set. Where would I find info on how to do this?
Larry
Stacked VFX 2812s,12 evergreen 190's on solar trackers, flexmax 80,MX60, Enersys DDM 125-33 AGM batteries @ 2000AH, E-meter, Kubota 6.5 gen, Off Grid.

User avatar
Kurt Lundquist
Alpha Energy Engineering
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:23 am
My RE system: VFX3524, Mate3, 200Ah 24V AGM Battery Bank
Location: Arlington, WA

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by Kurt Lundquist » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:19 am

Hi Larry,

Check out this link for info on using OutBack FX Inverters to start a 2 or 3 wire start generator.

http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/tech_no ... _start.pdf

Diesel generators are typically 3 wire start so you will likely need a GSCM. See the article for more info on that device.

-Kurt
Kurt Lundquist
Renewable Energy Project Engineer
http://alphaenergy.us/

rplarry
Forum Guru
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:51 am
Location: Bahia de Los Angeles, Baja Norte, Mex.

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by rplarry » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:36 am

Kurt
Thank you, exactly what I am looking for.
Larry
Stacked VFX 2812s,12 evergreen 190's on solar trackers, flexmax 80,MX60, Enersys DDM 125-33 AGM batteries @ 2000AH, E-meter, Kubota 6.5 gen, Off Grid.

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by gtarolli » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:53 pm

This link is stale - http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/tech_no ... _start.pdf
I searched Outback website but couldn't find it, can someone post a new URL for how to wire up a generator with 3-wire autostart controls (like Honda) ???

User avatar
IanMcCluskey
OutBack Product Management
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:16 pm

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by IanMcCluskey » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:08 pm

Have you read the Advanced Generator Start (AGS) app note on this page? http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/d ... /app-notes

It is under the Inverter / Charger section.
Ian McCluskey
Product Manager


Alpha Technologies Inc. / OutBack Power Technologies
3767 Alpha Way Bellingham WA 98226 USA
http://www.alpha.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by gtarolli » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Thanks for the updated URL ... that was useful, but I guess there's no simple solution. You need to buy a control module and configure it and wire it up etc. I'm pretty sure my installer has done this numerous times, so should not be an issue.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by sodamo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:45 pm

I got their kit fot the eu7000, works great.

http://www.generator-line.com/
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by gtarolli » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:56 am

Thanks David - that is about $100 more expensive than the Atkinson device, but seems SO MUCH simpler, and the fact that you use it on the EU7000 speaks volumes. And that they specifically say it works with EU and EM honda generators.

Can you confirm that you do not need the Honda remote start accessory? I assume the device you use wires directly to the generator without any additional accessories? My installer has done several AGS but I don't know what devices he used to do so (at least not yet).

Also when running the Honda EU7000, which is rated at 7000 watts peak and 5500 watts sustained, what are your settings for output, i.e. how many watts or amps do you have it generate? With your 4 FX I think you can sink 6000 watts, so I would be curious what your desired generator load would be. I am fairly new to all this, so I would think you might want to run somewhere between 60-90% of the rated output, e.g. maybe 4000 watts for the EU7000, maybe as high as 5000? So as to not strain it hard? If I get teh EM5000 it has the same engine as the EM6500 so I might run it closer to the rated output as the engine should not be straining, and I think it is more efficient at higher loads. My Radian can sink over 5000 watts as the batteries can, so the setting really depends on how much load do I want to put on the generator.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by sodamo » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:41 pm

I like this Honda autostart module, easy to install, easy to use. Mine is linked via a relay to AUX. suspect you can use the the Radian or FNDC relay function. No experience there. But for me I just hook my relay to AuX and Ags runs it.

Have to remember I had a 4 FX system so I think setting would differ from yours. I sent AC in to 9 amps in, seems to balance will my loads. Have seen OpticsRE report Generator at 5.6kw, maybe a quick surge higher. Any higher amps in and I would blow gen breaker.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by gtarolli » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:39 pm

My question about the generator was independent of your system , i.e. what would be the "ideal" desired loading on the generator to balance efficiency and logevity and not over-work it.

SandyP
Forum Guru
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:44 am
My RE system: 8 x 190W 24V Suntech panels (4 strings of 2) July 2011
4 x 325W 24V Suntech panels (2 strings of 2) added Sept2018
Mate2
Outback FM60 MPPT (max output lowered to 55amps)
12 x 2V Hoppecke GEL 660 Ah C100 - 24V System
Outback VFX3024 Inverter/Charger
Victron BMV-602s
Honda 5.5kW Genset
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by SandyP » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:20 pm

gtarolli wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:39 pm
My question about the generator was independent of your system , i.e. what would be the "ideal" desired loading on the generator to balance efficiency and logevity and not over-work it.
From memory, gensets do best when at 75% of their max rating so that does equate to around 5,250W for your EU7000 - close to their stated 5,500W sustained.
Last edited by SandyP on Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by sodamo » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Thank you 🤙
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:49 am

Yes, thank you. That's about what I thought.

I was reading the manuals on AGS and ran into a problem. SOC sometimes is not accurate, battery voltage is accurate. So I would love to start the generator based on battery voltage (rather than SOC) but only add 10-20% of SOC to the batteries, however the AGS docs say it will run through a full charge cycle. And I can't find any other way to shut AGS off , e.g. with a certain SOC or battery voltage , at least when it is started based on battery voltage (the 2 minute trigger). Perhaps I could pass the control wires through another relay that cuts the connection based on voltage? Or I could hack the inverter's battery charge parameters so that absorb and float are where I would be happy to shut the generator off, e.g. 52 volts or something low. Ideally when I start the generator I want to run it for about an hour or so and stop. Usually that will be enough to make it to sunrise and then we'll see what happens. No reason to do a full battery charge (probably 4 hours of generator time) if its going to be a sunny day. And if it rains, so be it, the genny will run again sometime during the day for an hour or so.

I know I can use other relays based on voltage to probably start/stop the generator, but I don't want to disable the AGS as I would like it to track how many hours the genny ran, and allow it to exercise the generator etc. Maybe that's not so important though.

If I use the 2 hour voltage AGS start, I can shut it off based on SOC, but it seems dangerous to use, as voltage changes slowly on LiFP batteries so I would have to set the voltage high because it will take 2 hours for the AGS to trigger. Of course, the 2 minute setting is a fail-safe, but that goes thru a full battery charge cycle. So if I goof on the 2 hour setting, it can be somewhat costly or at least wasteful.

So I'm struggling to find the "perfect" control mechanism. I would love to hear what others do for this. I realize some may want a full battery charge cycle, esp with FLA batteries, but LiFP don't need full charge cycles. My current thinking is to use SOC and then the 2-minute voltage as a fail-safe. And probably test lowering the inverter's battery charging params way low, so that it stops around 40-50% SOC.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:32 am

Just a quick reply, but look at using Absorb time. Pretty sure generator absorb is different than CC
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Auto gen start instructions?

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:39 am

sodamo wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:32 am
Just a quick reply, but look at using Absorb time. Pretty sure generator absorb is different than CC
Yes, it is different and should work - it is just a bit of a hack, but I am used to such things :-)
p.s. the matge3 pgm guide states then when the inverter charger goes into FLOAT or SILENT mode the AGS will STOP the genny (this is true for battery voltage or SOC start conditions).

Post Reply