this weeks project,

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blackswan555
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this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:24 am

If anyone is interested please say and I will go into a lot more depth of explanation, but below are a few photo`s of this weeks project, new batteries, add inverter, add flexnet DC , add Flexware 1000, try to cut consumption,
Attachments
23-06-09_1159.jpg
Start of FW1000
22-06-09_1418.jpg
note the generator, It`s only 35 deg C here at the mo, Add 10 deg when its running, Which it will be for around 24 h when we do the change over
22-06-09_1407.jpg
Nice room !
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:32 am

You made the AC wiring so nice and tidy with that gutter. Why didn't you put the battery cabling in 3" PVC?

Had I done that install, I'd have used much larger wire (not sure what metric sizes you've got in the required ampacity ...) from the batteries to the mounting board, then split that into the inverters. I'd also have mounted the charge controller on the same board, rather than down by the floor.

Other than that, very sweet.
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by The Electron » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:27 pm

Sometimes the DC install just doesn't get the chrome and polish. I can't sat that's bad or good for this install as there are so many variables at each site. But what about keeping the cables together as far as possible for each inverter to reduce inductance losses?

I wonder about the spurrious (sp?) emissions from each device and maybe that can be a source of some of the anomalities any given site will exibit. So perhaps some distance is good! Also heat - maybe that charge controller will get pushed and it just might perform better where it's cooler.

Random thoughts..............

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:55 pm

There are advantages, especially with copper prices being what they are, to using a single larger conductor from the batteries to the inverters. Rather than having to size three conductors for battery-to-inverter peak current, the conductor to where the battery cables are connected, with the proper DC circuit breaker, can be sized for the maximum simultaneous load on all three inverters. This would also provide for a single disconnect point for service, rather than having to open three separate disconnects. For installs with an FN-DC, it would also allow for a single shunt to cover all three inverters located much closer to the PS2DC that I don't see. Also, for three-phase, there should be a lot less noise as dI/dT is greatly reduced, and dI/dT (change in current with respect to time) is what creates magnetic fields. Instead of three very large 50Hz signals, there will be a smaller 150Hz signal being produced by the cables. This, of course, is the best reason to enclose all those conductors in some kind of metal raceway -- shielding.
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:57 pm

It`s not my original install or specification, I am just the person that made it work as it is now ( the customer could not use a TV or PC without it nukeing before) and am now doing an upgrade on it,
Please see pics below, I am pre building as much as possible due the the fact it is a working farm with a three additional holiday apartments,2 swimming pools, 7 fridges + a few more items, + much more than 1/2 hr power out is not an option, the property is off grid ( the gen is in the room ,,,,,, nice ,,,, unfortunately can not be moved) and have just competed most of the AC side today, We aim to build it in a modular fashion, We have 1 spare inverter, so are prebuiidng as much as poss, with the aim of being able to switch to bypass ( gen running ) remove old equipment, rebuild / re-install new inverter system that day, then basically disconnect gen and property feed/ reconnect within half hour, It`s a fun job :grin:
DC side tomorrow
Have a good one
Tim
Attachments
24-06-09_1423.jpg
wires are pre stripped and sized to go into inverter ( tape for protection)
24-06-09_1421.jpg
Internal wiring
24-06-09_1419.jpg
The idea is that it can just be slid in the side, 4 identical connections to inverters, neutral bus, gen in, Phase out, com`s still to be added.
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:09 pm

Dude, I definitely do not want your jobs. I think I'd pull all my hair out having to rework the systems you do. And I think I'd look pretty weird with no hair ...
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:29 pm

LOL :grin: did I mention the 12 x 315lb batteries that we have to lift ( by hand ) into a truck and move tomorrow between two of us cause they got delivered in the wrong place ](*,)
Have a good one
Tim
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by ralphday » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:45 pm

Tim
Have you thought about a platform type tow truck? Or a truck with a raising/loading platform? Anything to save the back. When my system was installed the batteries were moved down some stairs with a hand truck that would extend the load away from the wheels...downward...then the wheels would motor back to the load platform. The process was a slow walk down the stairs. Great little machine.

Ralph

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:35 am

Sadly a 4X4 is about the only thing we can get up to where they were put by a crane, A large piece of wood making a ramp and man handling them into and out of the back of my mates 4X4 is the only way other than get the crane back in which is not a good option,
Save`s money going to the gym :grin:
Have a good one
Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:50 am

Update, Ac side is built including comms & hub 10, Dc side is 80 %, but most cables cut and crimped to size, need the other breakers ( which are in use) to finish, going for changeover on Tuesday. Mate is going to live on front of AC enc,

Have a good one
Tim
Attachments
25-06-09_1410.jpg
My partner Clark, He carried the batteries down all on his own , ( yea right )
25-06-09_1334.jpg
wires and coms can be pushed inside for access/inverter removal if required, Mate is going to live on front cover, coms wire to DC for flexnet
25-06-09_1333.jpg
prebuilt , ready inc coms to slide on the side, gen in , gen out, 4 precut wires & com to inverters to connect, Hub 10 is on side
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by The Electron » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:18 pm

Looks like some fine work!!!

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:37 am

On looking at the rolls supplied battery interconnects i notice they are 4/0 ( 105mm ish) rolls 4ks 25p 1350 ah @20hr batteries @ 48v, I was planning a fair bit larger than that for the bat`s> breaker bus / shunt ( max 1m) ,I presume rolls know what they are supplying ? so is there any point ? hmmm ?

Have a good one
Tim
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by The Electron » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:05 pm

I don't know specifics, but I have a pessimistic observation.

Many times the jump up from 4/0 doesn't happen when it should. Sourcing "shorter" lengths of MCM-larger cable can be pricey/hard to obtain for many. I just double up here in this remote area and it works well. I try to pair up pos & neg to combat loss, but sometimes it's hard to do very far, if at all. Anyways, always go bigger/parallel if in doubt!!

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:45 am

A few more piccies, It is not quite finished yet, it is running, am back there on Tuesday to do battery commission and add flexnet DC ( And a bit of plumbing, change irrigation system to gravity instead of pumped )
Have a good one
Tim :grin:
Attachments
30-06-09_1659.jpg
start of the dc side
30-06-09_1658.jpg
AC side slid in perfectly, the wife could have installed it :-)
30-06-09_1314.jpg
the kind of workmanship we are replacing the top breakers are the bypass
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:18 am

Tim,

VERY pretty work. Definitely shows the difference between quality electrical work and cr@p.

But watch the comments about it being so simple your wife could do it or else I'll secretly start teaching her all I know and then you'll have to suffer the embarrassment of having her correcting your work ;)
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:21 am

Sry was not trying to be sexist/wifeist or any other type of ist :grin: I would have said the site dog could have installed it due to it being so easy from being pre wired , but that would have been silly, he is not tall enough to reach the top inverter :smile:
Have a good one
Tim
Attachments
25-06-09_1341.jpg
The dog is the one with the collar on :-) the other is Clark`y
25-06-09_1332.jpg
One of the two site dogs, regularly slobbers you in the ear, but your tools do not get nicked
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:30 am

Up and running nicely, A bit of tidying up to do, laptop sat on top of AC side is monitoring system with wattplot, I can log in remotely and see what is going on, A bit of tweaking of the FNDC and as we say over this side of the pond "Happy days, Job`s a good un"
Have a good one
Tim

Batteries have re-combiner caps on, Whole system will be either built round or moved at the end of the year, When grid finally arrives, Get rid of gen out of room and change system to HBX
Attachments
DSCF0153.jpg
Waiting for the Spanish sparky to tidy old mains board.
DSCF0152.jpg
The green cable is our version of fire proof (not at all nice to work with)
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:02 pm

Tim,

I still have to get the paying customers out the door, but I think when you get greenMonitor there (and the grid shows up ...) you'll find that gmManage (the grid manager) does a much better job than HBX. HBX can't drop the grid because it anticipates over charging the batteries, or use the grid because it's going to discharge too much. I definitely want to compete for business from anyone who's using HBX, especially if they are doing it to save money, and not just because they don't have hardware that can sell back to the grid.
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by intellact » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:00 pm

tallgirl wrote:HBX can't drop the grid because it anticipates over charging the batteries, or use the grid because it's going to discharge too much. I definitely want to compete for business from anyone who's using HBX, especially if they are doing it to save money, and not just because they don't have hardware that can sell back to the grid.
I agree - HBX has its limitations. :???: You can also use WattPlt PRO's user-programmable triggers to improve on HBX - sending MATE commands to control AC usage based on Battery voltages. :grin:
Andrew Welch, creator of WattPlot

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:16 pm

greenMonitor doesn't use voltages, it uses projected load and production values. It then forecasts the state of charge and determines if the state of charge will fall below the limit, or rise above 100%. It looks like this --

Code: Select all

07/10/2009 20:00:01: gmManage: Forecast: 6 Hours: -2791wh, Day: -1044wh
07/10/2009 21:00:00: gmManage: Forecast: 6 Hours: -2619wh, Day: -950wh
07/10/2009 21:00:00: gmManage: Low battery forecast at 8:00
-----
07/10/2009 21:00:00: gmManage: Re-charging batteries.
07/10/2009 21:00:00: gmManage: Enabling AC.
07/10/2009 21:01:12: gmManage: AC input enabled.
So, instead of running the batteries down to the low SOC / voltage value, then struggling to get the batteries recharged (running off the grid all this time because it reached the cut-out SOC / voltage) in the morning, the system reconnects to the grid and runs off the grid overnight. In the morning, it forecasts when charging is going to resume and reconnects. The result is less needless discharging, higher average SOC, and improved battery life. It also results in better peak load shaving and more effective shifting to night time grid use.
Julie in Texas

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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:57 am

It looks a very interesting product Julie ! I can`t wait to have a look at it :grin:
Another thought, Would it be possible to build some type of home automation code sending into it, EG X10 but not X10 because it is unreliable, but something similar, I have not done any HA for a few years so am not aware of the products on the market now, but if there was a "plug" ( or din rail mounted) type device that you could switch and it also would monitor and report it`s loading, I can think of a fair few uses already :grin:

Have a good one
Tim
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:46 am

Tim,

I am looking into revenue grade monitoring additions. I'm sure something like what you described could be done.

The software architecture is completely plugable -- that's how weather monitoring was added. If someone were to come up with a software interface to a specific load monitoring tool, it could monitor the other aspects of the system, such as total load or battery voltage, and take its actions automatically. There is no SDK for the product, but that's certainly something I could make available to developers. Let me know if you have something in mind, and can get engineering samples.
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by blackswan555 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:40 am

I have not used any of it, Has anyone else ? is it reliable ? but look`s interesting ?

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Plugwise-Energy-M ... Saving.htm

Have a good one
Tim

Edited to add , more toy`s :grin: http://www.zigbee.org/Products/Certifie ... fault.aspx
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by tallgirl » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:23 pm

blackswan555 wrote:I have not used any of it, Has anyone else ? is it reliable ? but look`s interesting ?

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Plugwise-Energy-M ... Saving.htm

Have a good one
Tim

Edited to add , more toy`s :grin: http://www.zigbee.org/Products/Certifie ... fault.aspx
The most promising technology, from my perspective, is an RS-232 Z-Wave bridge from Leviton. I currently have an X-10 system I really, really hate. If you start seeing posts about how greenMonitor supports Z-Wave, you know I'm on to something ;) Don't know if that will help you or not as it may be 120V only, but at least it would be a start. And since I now have support for "Divert DC" and "Divert AC" in gmMate ("Load Shed" will be finished before the weekend, just so y'all know ...), I might be able to do something other than turn AUX on and off.
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Re: this weeks project,

Post by marmite » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:43 am

Hi Blackswan, Nice work ! I will have to get `organised` with my own set up! Tall girl said you might be able to provide an FM 80 We are reletaviley close Iam in Crete If so how much would one cost me?
Regards
John.

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