1 of 8 RE16-B

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JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:13 pm

fcwlp wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:50 pm
JRHill wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:40 am
it is not unusual to have daytime temps hit mid 90s and into triple digits just have them drop into the mid 60s through the night.
Your temps are very similar to what we have at 5,500' in AZ. We may break 100 one or two days a year in June (not this year) but nights are typically in the 60s. I finally put a mini-split in, more for heat, but my wife likes the cooler temps during the day.

On my own inverter building, I have put an exhaust fan with a differential thermostat. It is currently set that if the inverter room is >75F and the outside air temp is at least 5 degrees cooler the exhaust fan runs.
I take it your batteries are in the inverter room - cool (literally). Our batteries are outside, in a Rubbermaid deck box and mostly in the shade. This time of the season the lid is propped open 6". We have a crawl space where all the stuff is but obviously not the batteries. Humidity isn't a problem and the space is great for the cooling. And another reason I don't want to go Lithium is I will have to get the dang things down there through a trap door and dragged into place. And rewire. And more and more. So much is of system design but it's usually the components themselves. Dang I don't want to get either the VFX or FM off the mounting surface with 4.5' of head space. It was no problem at the time of installation.

Yup, the day of installation is no problem. What about in 15 years?

Surfpath
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by Surfpath » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:37 am

Hi JR,
I had a “1 of 8” L-16 REB issue with one cell going out after 6 years use. I replaced the one dead battery with 2 Trojan golf carts (in 2018).

The overall battery bank has now had almost 8 years of use, so I have gone ahead and proactively ordered another 8 REB’s. They have been good to us. We are also in hot weather (27-28 degree C average bank temp).

If it helps, here is the link to the thread that I started in 2018 that details the above.
https://forum.solar-electric.com/discus ... cell-issue

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:48 pm

Surfpath wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:37 am
Hi JR,
I had a “1 of 8” L-16 REB issue with one cell going out after 6 years use. I replaced the one dead battery with 2 Trojan golf carts (in 2018).

The overall battery bank has now had almost 8 years of use, so I have gone ahead and proactively ordered another 8 REB’s. They have been good to us. We are also in hot weather (27-28 degree C average bank temp).

If it helps, here is the link to the thread that I started in 2018 that details the above.
https://forum.solar-electric.com/discus ... cell-issue

Surfpaft, thank you for the pointer to the thread. There is a lot in there - I'll have to read and digest.

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:44 pm

Last week I called around to a few battery places in Portland. With regard to Trojan L16s the answer was consistent: They are hard to get. There are NO deals. And getting matched lot numbers could be an issue.

The suggestion was to wait a while.

Maybe the real answer is that they are letting inventory dwindle lest they get their windows bashed out and the building set afire. But I don't want to get political....

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 pm

JRHill wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:44 pm
Last week I called around to a few battery places in Portland. With regard to Trojan L16s the answer was consistent: They are hard to get. There are NO deals. And getting matched lot numbers could be an issue.

The suggestion was to wait a while.

Maybe the real answer is that they are letting inventory dwindle lest they get their windows bashed out and the building set afire. But I don't want to get political....
The reason for the above was in curiosity if any folks shopping for FLA batteries have experienced the same from suppliers?

raysun
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Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by raysun » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:54 pm

JRHill wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 pm
JRHill wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:44 pm
Last week I called around to a few battery places in Portland. With regard to Trojan L16s the answer was consistent: They are hard to get. There are NO deals. And getting matched lot numbers could be an issue.

The suggestion was to wait a while.

Maybe the real answer is that they are letting inventory dwindle lest they get their windows bashed out and the building set afire. But I don't want to get political....
The reason for the above was in curiosity if any folks shopping for FLA batteries have experienced the same from suppliers?
I think Right Wing Radio was floating a conspiracy theory that Portland ANTIFA was using L16s to create IEDs and they were hauling them down to Estacada to blow up all the taxidermy heads in the Country Restaurant and Lounge right there in main street.

Along with not selling sudafed to meth cookers, they're not selling batteries in Oregon.

Of course the rumors and wing nut foment is total BS.

ANTIFA is only making Molotov Cocktails in stainless steel REI Hydro Flasks.
49n9x3.jpg

provo
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by provo » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:25 pm

JRHill wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 pm

The reason for the above was in curiosity if any folks shopping for FLA batteries have experienced the same from suppliers?
I talked to my dealer today, and he said it could be hard to get Rolls batteries from the factory now. If I wanted new ones, he'd try to get them from other dealers, and might not be able to find all the same date code. I'll wait until I can get all the same date code...

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:44 pm

provo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:25 pm
JRHill wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 pm

The reason for the above was in curiosity if any folks shopping for FLA batteries have experienced the same from suppliers?
I talked to my dealer today, and he said it could be hard to get Rolls batteries from the factory now. If I wanted new ones, he'd try to get them from other dealers, and might not be able to find all the same date code. I'll wait until I can get all the same date code...
Thanks for that confirmation Mr. Provo. I couldn't believe it was just here. The problem isn't going in for just a battery but it was for a bank of matched production numbers, if the qty could even be satisfied. And as I mentioned, the same came from several suppliers. So for the foreseeable future a little tickle from the generator is much more economical than buying a bank in these times. And the genset is getting exercised in the off season (wink).

Hope y'all are happy and healthy!

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:35 am

provo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:25 pm
JRHill wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:21 pm

The reason for the above was in curiosity if any folks shopping for FLA batteries have experienced the same from suppliers?
I talked to my dealer today, and he said it could be hard to get Rolls batteries from the factory now. If I wanted new ones, he'd try to get them from other dealers, and might not be able to find all the same date code. I'll wait until I can get all the same date code...
Sheesh. Back and forth with the FLA change over to lithium. I was determined to stay with another bank of Trojan L16's while waiting out the maturing of the lithium products. I believe it was Rayson who pointed out that the warranties on the lithium products are longer than the companies have been in business. I found that a profoundly interesting point.

With all the discussion about batteries that goes on and on and on related to FLA charging and maintenance I believe I know why my banks are at a loss for longevity. Relative to power demands our draw is quite modest. We can hit them in a fair way with the FM in the summer for bulk recharging. In the winter we can hit them with the generator for bulk recharging at max from the inverter. In the winter it stinks to absorb through a finishing charge at < 1kw on the generator. So why do I use the phrase "hit them"?

A lot of discussion is on amp hours, draw in/out, multiple banks, etc. That's wonderful when all is new. Me thinks the aging can be influenced in a negative way by low recharge rates and/or low discharge rates. In my case we can "hit them" at recharge. But our discharge is really low year around. Literally. In a year or two past I actually connected the air compressor with an open hose along with a resistance space heater, fans, etc. at the same time just to "hit them." It just added too much more to the maintenance.

The above is a major influence to LI for me. But darn, I can't have 'em outside. So I need an army to help me drop two of 'em into a crawl space and drag the darn things into place. And the I'll rewire....

provo
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My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
(4 strings, total 1920W)
Eight Rolls S-550 (2 strings, total ~800Ah @ 24V)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by provo » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:49 am

JRHill wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:35 am
Me thinks the aging can be influenced in a negative way by low recharge rates and/or low discharge rates. In my case we can "hit them" at recharge. But our discharge is really low year around.
I went through 9 years with my first pack of L16's without ever hearing about the bad effects of shallow discharges and slow recharges. Others knew that, of course, but it just didn't stand out to me as a major issue. One of my questions about Li-ion is what are we going to learn about THEIR quirks after a decade of real-world experiences?

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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by sodamo » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:11 am

It’s only been 9 months but I’m still extremely pleased with my SimpliPhi 3.8s. Still only exercise runs on generator since Jan.
I am less than enthusiastic about long term warranties. Bankruptcy killing my Aquion one was an awakening of sort. As I’ve stated elsewhere the fine print takes care of many other issues. Of course worse case with my SimpliPhis is total bank replacement as with the Aquions, but I’m hopeful that should I have a problem it can be addressed by individual units. I do enjoy the no maintenance aspect, but I still physically monitor my system daily.

Jim, have you thought about some sort of apparatus to help with placement? Sometime like a lift/crane/hoist?

In anyone interested, a webinar tomorrow

https://mailchi.mp/simpliphipower/simpl ... 97f96778b0
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:16 am

provo wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:49 am
JRHill wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:35 am
Me thinks the aging can be influenced in a negative way by low recharge rates and/or low discharge rates. In my case we can "hit them" at recharge. But our discharge is really low year around.
I went through 9 years with my first pack of L16's without ever hearing about the bad effects of shallow discharges and slow recharges. Others knew that, of course, but it just didn't stand out to me as a major issue. One of my questions about Li-ion is what are we going to learn about THEIR quirks after a decade of real-world experiences?
"what are we going to learn about THEIR quirks after a decade of real-world experiences?"

That's what I am pondering.

raysun
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Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:41 am

JRHill wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:16 am
provo wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:49 am
JRHill wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:35 am
Me thinks the aging can be influenced in a negative way by low recharge rates and/or low discharge rates. In my case we can "hit them" at recharge. But our discharge is really low year around.
I went through 9 years with my first pack of L16's without ever hearing about the bad effects of shallow discharges and slow recharges. Others knew that, of course, but it just didn't stand out to me as a major issue. One of my questions about Li-ion is what are we going to learn about THEIR quirks after a decade of real-world experiences?
"what are we going to learn about THEIR quirks after a decade of real-world experiences?"

That's what I am pondering.
The Lead Acid battery has been around a long, long, time, and we still don't know everything about the complex chemical state-changes (that being a redundancy, chemistry is the study of state changes.)

Lithium has one simplifying benefit. They shuffle ions around, but don't undertake any recombinant reactions.

With the billions of Lithium batteries out there, the quirks are fairly well known, and most have to do with anode degradation. Its more materials science than chemistry.

What we will find in a decade, quirks-wise, is the real-world integrity of the companies selling these batteries.

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:43 am

Its also a hoot that I have been dealing with other stuff: like the failure of my woodmill and it was cadmium corrosion at the connections for 12vdc 250 amp connection at the hydraulic pump relay. It wasn't the mains, it was the trigger line to the relay.

Why do I say this? So many problems are those that one would say "Oh, it can't be that." But it is. The simplest stuff....

It's the same on our systems. Always check the easiest stuff first,

raysun
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Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by raysun » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:58 am

JRHill wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:43 am
Its also a hoot that I have been dealing with other stuff: like the failure of my woodmill and it was cadmium corrosion at the connections for 12vdc 250 amp connection at the hydraulic pump relay. It wasn't the mains, it was the trigger line to the relay.

Why do I say this? So many problems are those that one would say "Oh, it can't be that." But it is. The simplest stuff....

It's the same on our systems. Always check the easiest stuff first,
Occam's Razor.

Many years ago, when Data General mini-compters were a thing, a client of mine was having problems with the big power supply modules failing. After a couple of replacements, DG sent a team of engineers to work with the locals to find the problem. They tried all manner of diagnostics until they managed to burn another PSU. Working well into the night, the gaggle of geeks were approached by the janitor, who, after noticing the burned power connector mentioned: "They told me I can't plug my polisher in here because all the wiring is aluminum."

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:10 pm

That's it. For those that don't know, from Wikipedia: "Occam's razor is the principle that, of two explanations that account for all the facts, the simpler one is more likely to be correct. It is applied to a wide range of disciplines, including religion, physics, and medicine."

This is the closest I'll get to being political once again. Thanks, Raysun for bringing it up.

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:49 am

Update: I checked a few days ago and there is not a matched bank of Trojan L16s unless shipped from SoCal to here. Nope.

I once again returned to the Discovery website and ran the sizing tool. Something changed. My solar input, charging and demand has not changed but now it says I need three 48v units, not two. Whoa. Ouch.

So what am I missing? A replacement bank of Trojans that last five years plus another bank for the next five years is getting really close to the cost of a bank of three 48v Discovery batteries for ten years (warrantied with derating?). I know how the Trojan's last with our demand and service. But the Discovery stuff is still a question. I'm having trouble factoring this out.

provo
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Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by provo » Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:28 am

JRHill wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:49 am

A replacement bank of Trojans that last five years plus another bank for the next five years is getting really close to the cost of a bank of three 48v Discovery batteries for ten years (warrantied with derating?).
What about Rolls? I got 9 years out of my first (unmatched) set, and I think I could've done better if I had known then what I know now about caring for batteries. The smallest L16 from Rolls is 390Ah, so maybe more than you want, but they're around $400 ea.

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm

provo wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:28 am
JRHill wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:49 am

A replacement bank of Trojans that last five years plus another bank for the next five years is getting really close to the cost of a bank of three 48v Discovery batteries for ten years (warrantied with derating?).
What about Rolls? I got 9 years out of my first (unmatched) set, and I think I could've done better if I had known then what I know now about caring for batteries. The smallest L16 from Rolls is 390Ah, so maybe more than you want, but they're around $400 ea.
I pinged a dealer that came up first. I've not searched Rolles before and dang, this dealer isn't close by us.

I have little negatives from the manufacturers. Its the retailers. They do the manufacturers a profound injustice.

provo
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My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
(4 strings, total 1920W)
Eight Rolls S-550 (2 strings, total ~800Ah @ 24V)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by provo » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:21 pm

JRHill wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm

I have little negatives from the manufacturers. Its the retailers. They do the manufacturers a profound injustice.
True here as well. But if you're only getting 5 years out of an L16 FLA, that's the manufacturer!

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:01 pm

provo wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:21 pm
JRHill wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm

I have little negatives from the manufacturers. Its the retailers. They do the manufacturers a profound injustice.
True here as well. But if you're only getting 5 years out of an L16 FLA, that's the manufacturer!
They don't boil anymore. Sigh. They are done.

JRHill
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Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by JRHill » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:50 pm

Hi Folks, I recently was in contact with a new vendor. They quoted me the Trojan L16G-AC instead of the L16RE-B. Looking at the .PDF this is a fork lift type battery which is just what the company's focus is toward. The C20 was similar and the warranty is different (shorter) and it doesn't have the Smart Carbon feature that the RE series has. But the price was really similar and they are available.

Has anyone had experience with this style? I need to do something soon....

Best, Jim

raysun
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SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: 1 of 8 RE16-B

Post by raysun » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:46 pm

JRHill wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:50 pm
Hi Folks, I recently was in contact with a new vendor. They quoted me the Trojan L16G-AC instead of the L16RE-B. Looking at the .PDF this is a fork lift type battery which is just what the company's focus is toward. The C20 was similar and the warranty is different (shorter) and it doesn't have the Smart Carbon feature that the RE series has. But the price was really similar and they are available.

Has anyone had experience with this style? I need to do something soon....

Best, Jim
Hey Jim,

I don't know much about the Trojans, but have experience with the Outback "nano carbon" technology. Its purported to provide enhanced cycle life in partial state of charge (psoc) applications. For me, it was irrelevant as I fully charged my battery each cycle. Were I to repeat the installation, I would have ignored carbon in this application.

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