Off Grid upgrade

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Off Grid Applications

Moderators: OutBack Moderator Team, OutBack

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:12 pm

I have mentioned elsewhere on forum my intentions to update my current quad FX3048T system. Having just (unexpectingly) replaced my batteries I’m getting encouragement from the CFO to do so sooner rather than later. By the time our son misses it in his inheritance we won’t be here :grin:
Current system works well, but environment/age beginning to show. Have replaced some wiring and breakers this past year. I expect I’ll be able to recover some $$ off Craigslist. Still thinking I’ll retain 2 of the FXs for a dedicated charger station. So I’ll probably sell as a 2 inverter system.

I want to go with the Outback factory prewired package. Initial decision was the Flexpower FP4 with FXR3048s. Figured I could readily handle as a self install. Talking with my installer, was informed not FP4s available locally and would have to be special order (more $$)
But he has installed a good number of Radians and highly recommended. I also noted that on the main Outback site reference to the hawaii school project - all Radians with SimpliPhi batteries.

I want to maintain my 12kw capabilty. Initial look was the prewired GS8048A and add a Radian 4048 and prewired load center 2 off my FM80s. Installer was willing to sell for self install and give me installation price as well.
Somewhat strangely, lot of savings getting the components vs the prewired GS4048A and adding 1 of my CC. Looks like we will take that approach installer doing it with my help. Looking at week of 11/19 to do.

Any comments/suggestions welcome
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Mike Curran » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:37 am

Hi David - My garage roof system's getting old too, but I'm at that point when I don't want to tackle any more major upgrade projects, so when the time comes I'll probably swap out my GVFXs for VXFRs, since they're a drop in replacement. Will probably swap the Rolls for Simpliphi's as well, change to 48 volts from 24.

FWIW - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2804
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by raysun » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:48 am

Screenshot_20191111-064719_Google.jpg
You jus' dump da Aquions in da gulch braddah?

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:09 am

Caught me 😁

We got a good shaking, no apparent damage. Pretty close for us.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:45 am

From Kauai: I didn't feel your old batteries hit the bottom of the gulch :-)

Regarding getting both a Radian 8048 and 4048 to keep your peak at 12kw - how often do you use over 8kw? I ask because the Mate3 has a load transfer mode that seems to be able to the generator (via AGS) when the load exceeds a limit. So perhaps you could set this to something like 7kw and not get the second Radian, which would certainly save a lot of money. Especially if the Radians are a backup to the old inverters, I mean how often are you going to be using the backup AND exceeding 8hw? Just a thought If you go this route, the critical question is can the batteries and generator both supply the loads - I asked this question once before but didn't get a 100% clear answer, but I believe the answer is yes. The generator is like the grid and there's an OFFSET feature that I think will do the trick, using the batteries to supplement the "grid" or generator.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:21 am

Not a great answer, but maybe helpful to my approach.

Our needs once back to full operation: house, rented cottage, pool, hottub - likely around 30kw per day. As I recall I have seen usage peak around 9kw, hottub heater etc. Pool and hottub will almost never run at night. Pool is aways managed manually, hottub put on external timer.

One thing I have liked about my quad system has been the ability to reconfigure to use less inverters. This has occurred several times for various reasons over the years. The radians will be set up likewise. As you know, repairs are not always quick and cheap for us. I prefer NOT to have to rely on extended generator runs. So far only one time over night, next week may be the second.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:26 am

Forgot to include
Radians will replace entire old quad system except FM80. I still intend to repurpose 2 of the FX for direct charging.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:39 am

Oh, I thought the Radians were a backup to the older inverters. Note if you use the older inverters as direct chargers like I do, it might be tricky to keep track of amps. Are all inverters going to be tied to the same Mate3? That would be ideal, you could turn off the inverters on the non-Radian. The question is whether the Mate3 can track the generator amps going thru the older FX chargers. Hmmm.... if it can I should probably test out hooking up my old inverter/charger to the same Mate that controls the Radian (right now its connected to the old Mate from the old system). Since I only use the generator every once in a while (like yesterday and probably next week), I usually leave the charger offline so it doesn't draw power, i.e. I throw a big switch when I use it.

Hmmm... I now wonder if the cat5 connection matters much, the fact that the charging wires bypass the shunts and go directly to the battery are probably the main issue. Anyway, something for you to think about, if you haven't already. How are you going to monitor the chargers and the amps they put into the batteries. I do it manually, yesterday I added about 50 amps with the genset, so I added 50 amps to my battery size. Since FNDC tracks amps used, it sort of works, e.g. 0% is really 0%. Today I will reset the battery bank size back to its real size if/when I reach 100% SOC. The only problem is that no one else in the household would ever understand this ...

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:48 pm

My hope is to be as integrated as possible. Not exactly sure how at this point.

The FXs will be powered by autostart generator. Hope this will be primary charger with backup provided by Radians autostart a 2nd generator. Guessing this will require some trial and error with ags settings. The FXs will have own Hub and Mate3, possibly own FNDC. Guess this would appear as additional site on OpticsRE. I am curious as to whether I can connect to the Radian FNDC shunt and therefore see the input there. Of course I’m hoping with my recent wealth of batteries, generator runs will be a rarity.
Lots of thinking yet to do. Comments/suggestions welcome.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by Mike Curran » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm

Guess this would appear as additional site on OpticsRE. 
David - Site remains the same, you would add a new "system" to your site. For my site ("Curran-Tuskes residence") I have 2 systems, one called garage roof, the other barn roof, as shown here:
Screenshot_20191111-190012.jpg
If that's what you meant, sorry to belabor the point.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:54 pm

Thanks for clarification Mike
That’s what I meant.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:52 am

Are all your generators 240v? Is the backup gennie in case the main gennie fails or the main charger fails?

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:30 am

gtarolli wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:52 am
Are all your generators 240v? Is the backup gennie in case the main gennie fails or the main charger fails?
Yup
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:01 am

I ask because my goal for such a system would be to have everything visible and controlled by one Mate and FNDC. One way to do this for probably 99% of the time is to hook the primary generator up to the Radian and FNDC. Now the Radian has 2 AC inputs and you have 2 Radians, so it might be possible to hook the other generator into one of those inputs, else place it in parallel with the primary gen input as only one will be running at a time. Then take the AGS control wires and put them in parallel to both generators, but insert a switch to direct the control only to one generator. You of course would have to throw the switch to activate the backup generator, but in this manner all the control and input and monitoring is under one Mate3 and FNDC. Of course, there are permutations on this scheme - the backup generator could be controlled by the old Mate and passed thru the old FX chargers, and if it is only used a few times a year you can manage without accounting for the amps. Or you might still be able to wire the charger output thru the shunts on the Radian FNDC? I don't know, but if the primary generator is only used about 5-10% of the time, and it is controlled by the Radian et al, then almost all of your generator input will be properly accounted for etc. My assumption is the backup gen is only used < 1% of the time. One issue would be the generator settings in the Mate3, as there's only one setting. Also I am not familiar with stacking and your Radians might be stacked so I don't know how that impacts this.

Note with the two Radians I think there's 3 total inverters and chargers internally (2 for sure), so you have some redundancy. With some large switches you can keep the old FX in a backup gen. charge path if you want, where the Radians are normally used, but you can bypass them in emergencies.

In summary, in the worst case if you wire both generators to one generator input, and have both hooked up to the same AGS with a switch to only allow one to start (multiple ways to do this), then you have your backup in place with a manual switchover and totally accounted for in the Mate3 and FNDC.

caveat: I have no idea if wiring 2 generators to the same input is electrically OK, I assume the non-running generator will just ignore the AC on its output but I'm a computer engineer not an electrical engineer. Worst case is you have 2 switches one for the generator outputs and one for the AGS. That way you can totally isolate one generator from the system but swap between generators with 1 or 2 switches.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:22 am

I’ll add fuller response later today or this evening, but...
I can currently control all 3 autostart gens with single Mate 3. Will explain how later.

I doubt I can get away with single Mate3 control in new system unless a way to control multiple gens, but don’t think that is possible thru AGS. I could of course be overlooking some Radian feature not in current FX.

More later
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:15 pm

OK, my expanded answer.

I can autostart my 3 generators via AGS. A line is run from #1 inverter aux to a 12v relay. Relay connects to autostart Honda eU7000. The 240vac line is directly connected to Outback AC1 In & AC2 In. The Honda was my primary generator of choice during my battery fiasco due to economics. Running generator 6 hr/day, Honda @ $20 vs Kohler propane @ $50.
A parallel aux line from Honda to my transfer switch
2EDD0E39-6B14-4188-80A1-829129E48E45.jpeg
Small dpdt switch at bottom is left in middle position for Honda.
Flip to left activates diesel genset connection to AGS and associated led indicators.
Flip right for Kohler propane.
Breaker box has tied 60 amp breakers to direct power to Outback. The yellow leds indicate power to Outback. Red led for MEP diesel, Green indicates Kohler propane.
If breakers and switch are not in agreement, AGS errors out, shutting down generator.

I can see where some might consider overkill. Twice it has been invaluable when I was away for vacation. First was some sort of wire problem at my big diesel, 2nd was broken fan belt on the MEP. In both cases, I simply had to tell the caretakers to flip the switch and breakers. A friend fixed the wire problem, why I don’t know what it was exactly. Caretaker replaced fan belt next day.

My new dedicated charger system will require some logic changes. I’m not there yet.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:41 pm

Nice! I think that is similar to what I was arriving at in my brainstorming. So can you use the AGS in the new Mate3 to do the same thing (or is it an inverter relay that controls the auto-start) ?

Are all 3 generators' outputs sent to the same charger? And you just have switches/breakers in the path to select only one? If so, that is pretty much what I was talking about, and so why not wire them to the AC-in on the Radian instead. Then all the charger amps are accounted for in the same FNDC/Mate3 and you can monitor it all from one OpticsRE system. If you want a backup to the Radian charger, you can still keep the old FX with some switches/breakers to direct the genset output to them. Except do you really want them on 24/7 drawing a small load? If not, then you want a way to disconnect them from the batteries until you enable them as an emergency backup charger in the (hopefully) rare event the Radian charger fails.

If the AGS controller does its decision making based on battery voltage then SOC is not important for this. However, if you want an accurate SOC reading for your own purposes, then you want to try to get the generator/charger amps going into the same FNDC/shunts that handles SOC for the PV and AC loads.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:39 pm

Some thoughts on future setup.

I’m quite ignorant yet on Radian vs FX. Need to find out what’s different.

This thought on dedicated FX charger setup was before I had the SimpliPhi batteries. So far, My overnite DOD is only 25%. Maybe I’ll find out needing the generator will be rare event. Won’t really know that until I get pool and hottub back in operation and we have some wet season wx. Should that be the case, likely I’ll get lazy and stick with the redundant generators to Radian in a normal setup.

Most likely my set up will be the diesel and propane gensets wired pretty much as described. The Honda 7000 will be in reserve to plug in and take the place of either of those two if needed with the additional capability as a direct connect to my distribution panel for use when Radian is totally down. I will do this with a double pole breaker in distribution box. Would prefer a better bypass and am talking with installer how to do. Let’s say I don’t care for a bypass that includes the live connection also inside. Times I like a totally dead box if my hands are in it. Of course this is lost energy as far as monitoring - don’t care. This is type of bypass we will do for the Radian changeout so house remains powered.

Let me try to explain what I think I want should I go with the FX chargers. I am hoping the FX will only need ac in (generator) and dc (battery). No ac out - does yours work this way? I really don’t know if the FX will run as charger only this way. I’m envisioning a simple install, likely just the 2 DC breakers to FXs. To work as the primary charger I think AGS must be triggered separate from Radian. This would require own Hub, Mate3, possibly FNDC. As for capturing the input I think connection to the Radian shunt. Don’t know what is on Radian #3 shunt. I did test this briefly on my current system using an MX60, FNDC saw it. As for use of power, the FXs would never invert, would expect minimum as they’d basically be asleep until called to charge. Having to manually turn on/off would defeat purpose.

With the FX chargers as primary with own AGS trigger with proper settings, the second generator would then be ac in to radian and controlled normally by Radian AGS. My hope is this would only trigger when the primary failed. Guessing the 2 min volt might be the appropriate setting. Said another way, the FX AGS would be the one to respond to calls to charge - triggered by whichever settings higher than Radian. At this point whether SoC or volts is better I don’t know.

Should the FXs fail for any reason, the Radian wouldn’t know other than battery goes lower until it reaches it’s trigger then it starts generator and charges from Radian. i think I would be aware by seeing the OpticsRE charts and would troubleshoot the FXs. If not possible, the Radian just operates normally until I can.

Hope this is readable and understandable.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:02 am

My old inverter works the way you envision, generator ac in, DC out to batteries, no ac out. I only have one so no hub, just a cat5 cable direct to the old mate. I presume the installer pgmed the charge voltages. When I throw the switch it powers up and since voltage is low it will begin a bulk charge. I never let the Gen run long enough to approach absorb voltage before turning off so the actual charge cycle logic is not important. With ags I think the same is true as the genset will be shut off after a small voltage increase and so the mate/fx will always be in bulk? If yours is always powered up it will observe absorb voltages being reached so I would make sure you have a rebulk voltage set above your ags start voltage.

Are you going to be limited to 70 amps of DC charging with the fx?

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:24 am

My radian was prewired with the load center, shunt a is the inverter, b and c are for each fm80. I would think that you would want the same except with two fm80 on each shunt. Your system is almost exactly 2x mine.

Soc can drift and so I would use voltage to trigger ags, it seems more bullet proof. Before I started manually adding amps to my battery size, my soc would hit zero and then it would jump to 100! And oscillate between 0 and 100%. Totally bogus until the next time charge params were met which could mean days. So now I prevent that when charging via bypass by increasing my battery bank size in fndc with opticsre. Hence I highly recommend making sure the charge amps go thru the same fndc shunts as the inverter.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:02 pm

I’m getting the prewired units. Have to add the 4th CC. Not sure I see any advantage to CC being on own shunt. The info is available on the FM itself. Hopefully that would mean C would be available.

I’m hoping the SimpliPhi have better SOC reporting than my Aquions, they sucked. I’ll be watching.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2804
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by raysun » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:36 pm

sodamo wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:02 pm
I’m getting the prewired units. Have to add the 4th CC. Not sure I see any advantage to CC being on own shunt. The info is available on the FM itself. Hopefully that would mean C would be available.

I’m hoping the SimpliPhi have better SOC reporting than my Aquions, they sucked. I’ll be watching.
Seems all like charge controllers on the same shunt are neatly sorted by Optics just fine, yes?

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:48 pm

Seems so
Consider - any system only has 3 shunts at most. My current system has 4 inverters, 4 CC, how could you logically split other than all inverters on one, all CC on one. I think other systems use the 3rd for either other inputs or loads.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2804
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by raysun » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:50 pm

sodamo wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:48 pm
Seems so
Consider - any system only has 3 shunts at most. My current system has 4 inverters, 4 CC, how could you logically split other than all inverters on one, all CC on one. I think other systems use the 3rd for either other inputs or loads.
That's how I'd do it. The 3rd shunt could be used to support external chargers or other DC sources/sinks.

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Off Grid upgrade

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:14 pm

I don't believe OpticsRE will separate out what is on a shunt - how can it? If you have 4 CC on one shunt then all you know is the combined total. However, when you hover over the CC in the main dashboard and the popup appears, it displays each Hub Port. I often use the Mate page (go directly to its IP address on my network), and can view more details more easily, like relays , individual voltages etc. It also shows you each port on the Hub on one status page. And it works when the Internet goes down as it is internal! You just don't get historical data, which OpticsRE gives you.

I think one shunt for the inverter (and generator), and one for the CCs is fine, or you can split the CCs across 2, unless you want your other FX chargers on one shunt (so you can monitor their charging separately, and maybe also their small power draw).

I would recommend using the Radian inverter/charge as your main charger as it can sink a lot more amps if that is an advantage to you. I believe two FX charges limits you to 3.5kw charging, I think the two Radian will give you more than 2x that. So long as both primary and backup chargers go across your shunts, your accounting will be accurate, and I don't think it really matters what controls the auto-start wires. I feel its easier/more convenient to have the main Radian and its Mate and FNDC control everything if possible or at least the primary generator and charger, making it easier to monitor and modify. however, that's just my preference. I think the big thing is to make sure the primary charger amps are accounted for at a minimu, and if you can account for the backup charger amps.

Here's another thought - feed all generator outputs thru relays into one AC input (Radian?), each relay is controlled by 120v AC, so when a generator starts its output voltage closes the relay and its output goes to the AC input on the charger. Assuming only one gen. is on at a time, that would automate the process assuming you have multiple gens on the same charger? You can get relays of all types and sizes I believe. You can put small relays on the AGS wires so that if one generator is on its 120v output opens the other relays meaning the other generators cannot possibly start, except manually :-) , since their AGS wires are essentially cut.

Also note SImpliphi batteries really don't report SOC, its just FNDC doing a simple computation of accumulated amps in/out (since the last charge params being met) as a ratio of your battery bank size. So if after you hit 100%, you consume 100 amps more than you generated, and have 800 amps in your battery bank, SOC will be 7/8 or 88%. It seems that the Simpliphi batteries are such that their true SOC seems to match the computation that FNDC does. At least that's my experience. Setting your charge factor is probably the biggest thing you need to do correctly (and the only thing). I have mine set at 96% which seems to work well in terms of SOC reaching 98% when the voltage starts rising REALLY fast towards absorb. I know they recommend higher, but if I set it higher it says I have reached 100% and I know I have not because the voltage isn't at 56v, i.e. FNDC is over-estimating how many amps have entered the batteries.

Post Reply