FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Off Grid Applications

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sodamo
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My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by sodamo » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:45 am

You guys sure were busy while I was in town and I’m not going to even pretend that I understand :grin:

I do find the 50.2 - 54 volts a bit strange and out of wack with the published references. I’m still looking to tweak my generator start settings, Primary is 50.8, secondary 50.4 but that is also LBCO so probably not good, I lowered LBCO to 50, but with reservations. I think we need ability to make finer adjustments. .4 volts doesn’t give much flexibility, .2 would be better, .1 even better. Perhaps David LeBow is monitoring and will chime in if this is possible with firmware updates. Such large intervals didn’t matter as much with lead acid but with our LFP we see a much narrower world. My goal is to get secondary generator to automatically start before LBCO in event the FX Primary fails. Still don’t know what setting is best for Primary but 30% sounds good. Of course without FNDC on that system I’m limited to voltage start. Once I get that dialed in going for 25% on the Radian backup might be reasonable. If I limit self to top 70% of capacity that’s 630ah and above my current daily requirement.

Likely today will result in a generator call for me. This morning system was 52.2v reading 56%SOC. Forecast is rain all day and seems we have a good cloud cover, I’ve only generated .1kw PV last hour.

I have set my Radian AGS to start at 30% SOC and will be looking to see what happens.

I don’t have a good confidence level on relationship of SOS vs Voltage yet. Probably need a few days of good sun without fiddling with settings to get there.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

Jpro556
Forum Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 pm
My RE system: Two systems:
- Dual Radian 8048's, two FM100's, 10.3kw pv, 12 Simpliphi 3.5's, 1 Kohler 14Resa, 1 Honda EU7000IS
- SystemEdge FP1 3648, FM80, 1 Simpliphi 3.4

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Jpro556 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:53 pm

Hi Everyone.

I'm really struggling with these Simpliphi batteries. I've been taking good info away from these forums and experimenting, but I'm left with a couple questions I'm hoping are simple for you all to shed light on, if you don't mind.

First, my existing conditions:
Just built off grid house. Have 10.3kw PV but electrician still hasn't run lines from pole arrays to house. Nor has he run the lines from the primary generator to house. I run off the backup generator, supplying gas daily right now. As soon as lines are in, I'm adding second inverter and another bank of batteries.

Second, my system, under current conditions:
Radian 8048A
6 Simpliphi 3.5's
Honda Eu7000IS generator (at my altitude with derating, I can pull about 4400W consistently from it before it goes bonkers)

Third, my system, as soon as electrician gets his act together:
Dual Radian 8048A
FW1000 as battery combiner box
2 FM100's
10.3KW PV
Kohler 14.4RESA generator - Primary
Honda EU7000IS generator - Backup

QUESTIONS:

1. How do I get 80% DOD? I use 50.4 130s as LBCO, inverter battery voltage calibration is +0.4, I try 54.4 for 1 hour or 1.5 hours, sometimes 55.2 for .1hr, for absorb voltage. I attempt to use the batteries at 80% DOD. Watching KWH in an AH in and out, these settings don't seem to equate to 80% DOD. These batteries are supposed to have 414AH in them. I have the system set to 410AH. I am trying to use 331AH daily to get my 80% DOD. I find that these setting use 285AH to 300AH at most, something like 14kw to 15kw. The system will recharge 15kw or 16kw, but never hit the absorb voltage. I play around with it a good bit, but I can't get consistent KWH or AH discharged in a cycle in a way that seems to equate to 80%. AM I LOOKING AT THIS INCORRECTLY??

2. How do I know when the batteries are actually fully charged? When I commissioned the first set of batteries the first time, I charged as though I was using 100% DOD to 57.2v. Then I unplugged FNDC, replugged and started from there. But AH in and KWH in seemed way out of whack. The batteries were at 52.7v but then took in like 21kwh, as though they were totally discharged when I started! I want to charge the current six to an appropriate 100% level, and then add the other 6 batteries in soon, but want to get those charged to the same level before adding them. How the heck do I do that? how do I know? I don't know what measurements to trust. Very little seems to equate to published info from Simpliphi.

3. I use 98% battery efficiency, smart, not smart? thats what simpliphi says to do. I see some of you use 96%. Won't I constantly overcharge my batteries if I do that? Will that small amount even make a difference though?

4. I have never yet had my charge parameters met. Can anyone help me understand why? Does it even matter with these LFPs? I'm thinking it doesn't, but not sure. I have my charged return amps at 24, and keep my charged voltage at 54, just so it gets hit. Still, parms are never met.

5. If I just take 80% of the 21kwh in these batteries, or 16.8kwh, and force a return of 17,150wh one way or another, is that what has to be done, regardless of voltages? Any thoughts on whether that would hurt the batteries? Simpliphi's settings just don't come close to making that happen. These frickin things are expensive and I need the energy out of them that they promise. I supposed I could lower LBCO, and try raising absorb voltage, but I really don't want to go way outside of simpliphi's warrantied settings.....not that I have any faith they would ever honor a warranty claim.....most manufacturers weasel out of those things as a form of art.

Thanks for any input at all. I test and test, try to keep controls, modify, retest. I can't make heads or tails out of what I get versus what simpliphi says.

Jason

Mike Curran
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Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Mike Curran » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:26 am

1.
 I attempt to use the batteries at 80% DOD.
So, when you're running your house off the battery, you're saying that the battery never goes down to 20% SOC (equivalent to 80% DOD)? What happens to prevent it from getting there? Do you reach the LBCO before 20% SOC, or what?

2.
How do I know when the batteries are actually fully charged?
Good question since you can't measure specific gravity like with an FLA battery. I think you just need to run a full absorb cycle. I also think that your absorb time is too long. Here's what my settings are for 3 Simpliphi 3.8 batteries in series:
Screenshot_20200104-111941_Samsung Internet.jpg
3. 98% efficiency is the manufacturer's recommendation, I'd stick with it.

4. Try lowering your absorb time. I'm using 5 minutes and seems to work fine.

5. I wouldn't exceed any manufacturer recommendations.

My 2 cents' worth. - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:21 am

Your system is almost identical to mine except I have the older 3.4 batteries and a Honda E3000 gen. Everything works great for me, something is a bit fishy with your system. I hope the issue is getting to 100% SOC once and for all, but not all the observations lend to that. Let me try to answer your questions

1. How do I get 80% DOD? - I think the answer is really first get to 100% SOC and then you won't have a problem.

2. How do I know when the batteries are actually fully charged? My observation is when the batteries are within a few percent of full, the voltage rises rapidly from 55.4 to 56 with a few KW charging current. The close you are to full, the faster the voltage rise. So I would recommend absorbing at 56v for 12 minutes until you observe this a few times. If you then start a rebulk, you will see it only takes a few minutes to get back to 56v. Then you know they are at 100% SOC. see below for more info on settings.

3. I use 96%, which is a bit more conservative. Neither will overcharge the batteries, this just derates charging. Read the docs on this - if it is too high you might get to 100% reading before you are really there, if it is too low you might be at 95% when the batteries are full. THe SOC reading doesn't effect charging (it can control AGS though). I have seen mine jump to 100% and still charge in BULK mode for an hour.

4. CPM (charge params met) - this is tricky, and I don't like the way it works. I don't think it monitor net battery flow, it measure gross, which means if you have a large load it will exceed the return amps. I set my return amps to 60, and the charged voltage is .4v below absorb and above float. If your absorb and float are close, make it the average. I am always tweaking this, it's hard to get right, but not very critical.

5. I can get my batteries down to 10% to 20% and do in the winter in bad weather like today. Note that if you have a small load, e.g. 200-400 watts, the voltage will be .8v to 1v higher than the C/2 discharge chart. So for me, 20% on the chart is 50.5v, and that translates to about 51.3 with small loads. I am at 51.6 now and I believe I have 35-40% (I ran the gen last night, it shut off by itself, and it doesn't go thru a shunt yet so I added either 10-15% not sure how much).

I think once you get thinks adjusted right, you will love these batteries. I talked to Simpliphi about their charging params, and they said they recommend them for all their models, 3.4, 3.5, 3.8. And that I could use either the old recommendations or the new, or in between. I don't like their new settings because the absorb setting of 54.8 (see their docs, not Outback), is a bit too low for me. Here's why - you can reach this setting at 85% SOC and then it holds that voltage, which means the charging tapers off as the batteries approach 100%, and from what I've seen it can take a few hours. In one hour I think you might be at 95% and then it floats and amps trickle into the batteries even slower. (I have been watching Sodamo's system). Anyway, my big issue is if you reach absorb at 1-3pm, you might then run into clouds during the next hours and not hit 100%. I would like to hit it much sooner, so I am using 55.4v absorb for 24-30 minutes. That will get me over 95% SOC quickly I believe, and then the float charge will get to 100% eventually maybe, but even if it doesn't I can live without the last few percent. I can't live without 10%-15% however if the sun disappears. If you have excess battery capacity, this is OK and it will help prolong their life. So you compromise. They claim 10k cycles at the 56v absorb setting for the old batteries - I will be VERY happy if I get that many. I've now, after 2 years, lowered absorb to 55.4 (float is still 54v), to try to be gentler and kinder to the batteries at the top end. On most days I never go below 30-40% SOC, a few days a year down to 10% should not kill the batteries IMO and Outback tended to agree, but no one is certain.

p.s. to add more batteries, I would add one at a time , make sure the voltages are the same, I would have the new battery be higher so it discharges one battery to many, instead of the other way around

p.p.s. if you have trouble with temp. compenstation change your target voltages by a little, I have a solution using the Limited Range compenstation. This allows you to clamp your settings to any range regardless of the RTS, but still have the RTS online to monitor temp. The new FM100 have a zero slope that does this, but the older FM80 and FM60 do not, so you have to hack them.

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:35 am

One more note on getting to 100%. I disagree with Mike's suggestion of reducing the time, I would recommend the opposite - increase it. During absorb you will see your PV production decrease as it takes fewer amps to hold the voltage as the batteries approach 100% SOC. This assumes it is sunny. Let's say you are generating 4kw when you reach absorb. You should see the production gradually reduce to a few hundred watts more than your loads, and when it reaches that point, you are basically full. If you rebulk after you are in FLOAT mode, you will see this reducdtion happen over a few minutes. If you enter absorb at 54.8v it could take hours IMO. When I had absorb set to 56v it would take less than my 12 minute absorb cycle! I am hoping that at 55.4v absorb it will take less than 30 minutes. I think that at 54.8v it could take 1-2 hours which is too long for my lack of patience :-)

With a large PV array it's pretty easy to get the batteries to 54.4 or even 54.8v, but that is because of the charge current, not the SOC. They then sit at that voltage and the voltage very slowly rises as they absorb a LOT of amps, i.e. between 54.4 and 55.4v is where the batteries can absorb probably 50-75% of their capacity. So IMO your absorb should be at the upper end of that range, else the PV production is throttled back for an hour or more and you might run out of sunlight before 100%.

Mauricio
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My RE system: 24 LG275, 275W panels, 2 FlexWare500, four VFX3648, series/parallel Quad system, two FlexMax80, X240 transformer, MATE3, FN-DC, 6 SimpliPhi 48V 3.5kWh Lithium Ferro Phosphate (LFP) batteries, Cummins Onan 20GGMA generator (20 kW, LP Vapor fueled), OpticsRe.
Note: 12 Surrette Rolls 4Ks25P Batteries ( 4V, 1350 AmpHr), were replaced by the 6 Simpliphi PHI 3.5 on June 21/19.
Location: Todos Santos, Baja California Sur, Mexico
Contact:

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Mauricio » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:54 am

Hi Jason,
Not really answering your questions, but describing my experience so far with SimpliPhi batteries.
The reason I had started this thread was because I was asking myself the same questions you now are.
I had spoken to SimpliPhi technical support several times, I had spoken to OB support several times, but non were able to give me simple answers. SimpliPhi would refer me to Outback, Outback would be sending me back to SimpliPhi. At the end I realized that there is not a simple answer. Gauging SOC with voltages, as per SimpliPhi suggestion, is no use, the voltage curve is too flat and is very hard to know where or when, at any time, you are nearing the drop to “Zero” condition. A sudden heavy load (2hp water pump for me) could knock you over. In your case I think, using Radians inverters, you have better control over this condition; my inverters are the older model, I had to hardwire a shut down, via FNDC relay set at the 49.6 Volts. In my quest to get understandable results, I had even tried to tweak my battery capacity, taking into consideration Battery “C” discharge rate. SimpliPhi gives a capacity of 69 Ah @ C/2 rate. My reasoning was that not being close to that kind of discharge my battery capacity should be grater. Wrong reasoning; I was using the mentality of a liquid acid battery’s user, where a capacity of 648 Ah @ C/2 corresponds to a capacity of 1350 Ah @ C/20, (Rolls 4KS25P). After looking at the very flat discharge rate curve: ‘Available Capacity vs Current’, of SimpliPhi, that shows no significant loss from C/20 all the way to 1C, I did abandoned that idea and frustration and set my battery capacity at 420 Ah (69 x 6 units, rounded up). At the end, all the parameters were set up as per PHI Battery/OB integration guide and monitor raw data (battery voltage and shunt current, both substantiated by voltmeter and clamp-on ammeter). For days I’ve collected data between sunset and sunrise. Starting from a fully charged condition (showing little return Amps). Just before sunrise, FNDC-SOC and SOC calculated through real consumption were in agreement to within a few percentage points. I now trust OB readings and to some extent put some faith in the FNDC given SOC. Life is much simpler now, a quick glance at OpticsRe tells me all I need about system's conditions.
Mauricio - Todos Santos, BCS
http://www.arribadelaroca.com

Jpro556
Forum Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 pm
My RE system: Two systems:
- Dual Radian 8048's, two FM100's, 10.3kw pv, 12 Simpliphi 3.5's, 1 Kohler 14Resa, 1 Honda EU7000IS
- SystemEdge FP1 3648, FM80, 1 Simpliphi 3.4

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Jpro556 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:20 pm

Thank you Mauricio, gtarolli, and Mike.

I'm sensing we are required to be more scientist than I assumed rolling into LFPs. If that bothered me I wouldn't be living off grid at 11,000'. But I'm surprised.

All of you added more to my knowledge base. Thank you for that. I'm not unhappy with these batteries, just trying to figure them out.

The one last thing I'd like to verify with you, as it wasn't addressed and makes me nervous, is about KWH in and AH in. If you don't mind.

Should I be worried if I try to charge per Mauricio and juice these batteries to 56+ and in so doing see that the energy in significantly exceed energy out?
Like say I've drawn 14KWH, but in trying to get a good 100% charge at what I assume will be something like 56.5 where I notice amps in dropping to a trickle and voltage moving up swiftly, I see that I've put in 20kwh or 21kwh or 22 kwh, is that at all something to pay attention to, or just watch the voltage and not worry about AH and KWH in?

I relate to everything you all have posted. Thanks so much. I wasn't expecting LFP voltages to be tied to c/2, and have definitely seen that at a regular draw of maybe between 1kw and 2kw most of the day, with very short times of 4-4.5kw, my batteries definitely are almost tapped by the time they get to 51.2 or 51.3. Not sure how to describe that as the voltage under load is easily .3 or .5 lower than at rest under no load.

I'm going to play with your suggestions and see if I can figure more out for myself.

Best Regards,
Jason

gtarolli
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Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:38 pm

I usually don't watch voltage too much, until it gets very low, like around 51v, or I've added a lot of amps via genny and are manually tracking them (tomorrow I should get the genny hooked into shunt c so it is properly accounted for).

Something seems strange that energy in >> energy out. If you put 20+ kWh into the batteries (net of loads) they should definitely be 100% full. Do you observe the rapid voltage rise I described after 55.4v? I don't think you need to ever go above 56v while experimenting, 12 minutes at 56v absorb should reach 100%

Can you describe in more detail about how much you can draw out of the batteries after you are sure you are at 100%? If you remove 300 amps, you have about 25% left. What's your voltage reading at that point and the load? I would think 51.2 with 1-3kw load might be reasonable. I think the 3.8 batteries have a slightly different voltage curve than mine.

My system is 400 amps total battery, and that is usually a very good gauge, e.g. when I am at 100 I get nervous (manual start genny), and when it is at 370 I see a rapid voltage rise during absorb. Reducing the efficiency setting from 98% to 96% will reduce the energy in reported a tad. So if you are just off by .5k per day, that might help. How much are you off by? E.g. if you reach 100% SOC (for sure) 2 days in row, how much goes into and from the batteries?

Also - make sure your shunts agree with the devices, e.g. many people have shunts wired wrong after install (I did, Sodamo did), and that can effect some of the number you may be reporting. So when you have no PV production and just loads, make sure Shunt A (or whichever) matches the loads. When you have lots of PV production make sure it is all reported properly on the other shunts, and that you net makes sense (use the Mate's web interface page, not Optices, it is a lot easier for some of this).

Mauricio
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:49 pm
My RE system: 24 LG275, 275W panels, 2 FlexWare500, four VFX3648, series/parallel Quad system, two FlexMax80, X240 transformer, MATE3, FN-DC, 6 SimpliPhi 48V 3.5kWh Lithium Ferro Phosphate (LFP) batteries, Cummins Onan 20GGMA generator (20 kW, LP Vapor fueled), OpticsRe.
Note: 12 Surrette Rolls 4Ks25P Batteries ( 4V, 1350 AmpHr), were replaced by the 6 Simpliphi PHI 3.5 on June 21/19.
Location: Todos Santos, Baja California Sur, Mexico
Contact:

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Mauricio » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:14 pm

Whoa Jason, we are 11,000’ apart, you up there me at sea level, you, most likely, at freezing temperatures me at 30° C +. What nice conditions to test our batteries, too bad we are paying for the research.
Mauricio - Todos Santos, BCS
http://www.arribadelaroca.com

Jpro556
Forum Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 pm
My RE system: Two systems:
- Dual Radian 8048's, two FM100's, 10.3kw pv, 12 Simpliphi 3.5's, 1 Kohler 14Resa, 1 Honda EU7000IS
- SystemEdge FP1 3648, FM80, 1 Simpliphi 3.4

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Jpro556 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:04 am

Mauricio,

Yeah, funny. I just checked out your website link. Looks awesome. We were just debating between going to Los Cabos area or elsewhere for mid Feb. Decided 70 degree water wasn't enough for us. So Baja another year.

11,000' is challenging, especially off grid. Middle of national forest on an old patented mining claim. Lots of good skiing and snow fun though. That and views were the point.

Up here, even the inverters are derated. Haven't pushed them to find out, but by the book, they are derated like 20%.

Bright bright sun first thing in the morning, with panels that are -32F, is something I'm about to deal with too.

I just recharged my batteries yesterday from "19% SOC", 51.2v, and 15500W of discharge, brought them up to 56 for 12 minutes. I watched the last hour to see how fast the voltage rose from around 55 to 56. It was a bit like watching grass grow though I had a few other things to do in my mechanical room too. Batteries took in about 17.5kwh. And 3kwh of that was after 55v, equating to around 15% of total capacity. I still didn't meet the charge parameters though. That just confuses me.

If what outback and simpliphi published made more sense with observed in/output and produced repeatable results I would feel better about using those settings and leaving it alone. But no. Now, I'm thinking charging to 56 for a few minutes is probably a good baseline to consider fully charged. I'll make sure that the next set of batteries I install in the coming weeks are charged up to that level too when I hook them in. For the big picture, maybe using the old settings for 100% DOD is the way to go, but then having my generator kick in around 51.5 or so would keep me from ever getting below 20% remaining capacity. Who knows??? The old setting for this would put the top end charge voltage at 57 I think. Maybe that could get dialed back to 56 or so after watching and assessing for a time.

Best,
Jason

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:38 am

Since you are at such an extreme elevation - I wonder if the battery chemistry changes? Did you research that? I will go back to some of my old data in Optics and see if I can estimate how many kwh I put in after 55v. 3kw seems a bit high, but could be ... I will also see today if I read 100%.

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:39 am

Also - I think the fast rise is probably after 55.4 or so ...and make sure your voltages are reasonably well calibrated, i.e. all devices are within .1v or .2v

raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by raysun » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:48 am

After reading all the threads, I'm planning on upgrading to these in the future, but will have some custom stickers made to put on the cases that say "CompliPhi" or "NotthatSimpliPhi". Whichever fits.

;)

KeithBriggs
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Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 16k 2 8k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 6 3.4 simpliphi Grid-tied, HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 51.2.

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by KeithBriggs » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:29 pm

My experience with a 16kw 4FM80 and 6 3.4 simplifi agrees with gtarolli. I generally followed the guide for 3.4/5 integration and told my outback I had roughly 2x the storage so pretty consistently when I'm at 57% on the FNDC and I'm at 50.4v. And you are right, the weakness in the system is at the low end of the battery SOC. That's why I put 24 panels on the SE side of the and vs 12 on the SW and 12 on NW. I want to kick in as much as possible at dawn. I'm in Hawaii so could have even put them on the NE side! I use voltage to trigger because a big load at a higher SOC should trigger supplemental juice to protect the battery or protect from a shutdown.

100% SOC isn't 100% just like 100% SOC in my new LEAF isn't 100% its the % that you should charge to. Last year the Colorado point of sale rebate was 9000 along with the fed''s 7500 (get that later) but it made an easy decision.

I eventually will use the LEAF as supplemental storage but have not taken the plunge for one of the two Chinese V2H inverters. I'd prefer a straight (voltage adjusted) DC to DC charge from the car but it appears to be 370v and not even the FM100 can handle that. More wiring too for an additional CC vs adding it as an AC source. Jury is still deliberating.

Captain Cook, HI in the winter.
Evergreen CO in the summer.

Norm
Forum Expert
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:49 pm
My RE system: Off-grid remote home at 7000 feet since 2007
New Mexico. Upgrade in progress.
Flex500 system installed in 2007. Inverters, charge controllers, Hub, and Mate3s new 2018
- 8 ea 175W (1.4 kW) Solarworld panels -- FM60
- 10 each 370W bifacial panels 3.7kW new on original 2-axis tracker -- FM80
- Blue Ion 2.0 LiFePO4 16 kWh battery installed 2018 with eGauge
- 2 VFX3648A Inverters 120/240V
- Mate 3s and Hub10
- 14kW Kohler propane generator
Installation underway
- Radian GS8048A system for primary off-grid loads
- 16 ea 370W panels bifacial fixed array 20 degrees elevation -- 2 ea FM80s
- 6 ea 370W bifacial panels adjustable elevation mounting -- FM60

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Norm » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:44 pm

Interesting discussions. I have different information and experiences with my Blue Ion 2.0 compared to the info in this thread re SimpliPhi voltages for charging and SOC versus voltage-based AGS. Our Blue Ion 2.0 has been in service since late June 2018. We love it. It has vanquished our battery angst, so far.

As described in other threads, Blue Ion 2.0 is an elegant package of 8 Sony lithium ferrous phosphate 2 KW large shoebox sized 48V batteries that were shipped individually in Sony boxes. The Blue Ion package requires field installation of the eight 2 kW batteries in the Blue Ion cabinet, connecting them with elegant buss bars, and daisy chaining them to the apparently Chinese BMU with ethernet cable. The BMU has a built in 250 amp breaker on the front and load terminals on the back.

Sony was supposedly the first to commercially deploy this lithium ion chemistry in 2009. Sony batteries are available in the USA only as packaged into a Blue Ion unit, as far as I know.

My only problem with Blue Ion is the paucity of user information. After reading many posts in this thread, I searched on line unsuccessfully for Sony user information to compare against the Blue Ion start-up rep's recommendations. I didn't find a Sony manual but the search turned up two of my posts to this forum, one before I bought the battery and one right after it was installed. Kurt asked for an update of my decision and experiences in 2018. I will provide that update and my charging and AGS experiences by posting to that April 2018 Blue Ion 2.0 thread.

Jpro556
Forum Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 pm
My RE system: Two systems:
- Dual Radian 8048's, two FM100's, 10.3kw pv, 12 Simpliphi 3.5's, 1 Kohler 14Resa, 1 Honda EU7000IS
- SystemEdge FP1 3648, FM80, 1 Simpliphi 3.4

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by Jpro556 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:17 pm

First, Keith Briggs, we are practically neighbors. I grew up on the Big Island, high school at HPA in Waimea. I have lived in Evergreen for 7 years, transitioning to new off grid house in Eagle County. About a mile in behind Safeway in Evergreen.

Regarding Blue Ion, I’d like to hear more. They were a choice when I bought Simpliphi. Trusted people at Outback encouraged me to go that route. But just too expensive. An impressive group though. I believe blue ion is Hawaii based.

KeithBriggs
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Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 16k 2 8k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 6 3.4 simpliphi Grid-tied, HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 51.2.

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by KeithBriggs » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:52 pm

Howdy Neighbor! My 8k system is in bubble wrap in Evergreen waiting for me for this summer. You gave me lots of food for thought. I know about the voltage spike in the morning based on temp. Why I went with the FM100. I read your message about the batteries not behaving as expected. My only issue with them was when I didn't have all my wires of identical length going into the load center, Version 2 had 3 batteries going to each Radian with 6' pair of 4(O)'s between them and that didn't work either. Version 3 has all 6 batteries on the slave radian buses and the 4(O) goes to the second inverter DC - code would require a 2(O). It was not intuitive to me that all the battery cables needed to be identical otherwise the shortest cabled battery would drain long before the others and it would (over)charge before the others were charged. Probably not your issue but it wasn't intuitive to me so wanted to bring it up. Blue Ion is based in Honolulu! Interesting that inter-island solar in Kona turned me on to Simpliphi and not BI but it was 11/2017.... I didn't go with inter-island because they were going to charge me retail for everything. Went with a guy on the mainland and even with shipping saved 15k. I had wanted to go with a lead based battery and in 5 years go Lith but after seeing how maintenance free they are, I took the plunge but it did about double the system cost. Got the first strings up and wired in April 2018 and fired it up and to date 13,799 kwh. Blue Ion is the same chemistry so I recommend them or simpliphi to anyone.

gtarolli
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Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:55 pm

Here's some observations on my system with six Simpliphi 3.4 batteries.

At 78% SOC with 2kw PV generation I read 54v, with 6kw of PV I read 55v (within a few minutes of the other reading). So that's 4kw away from 100% SOC at 55v, which I think explains some things. Basically the 55v is artificially high due to the charging, the battery bank at rest is really at 54v. Voltage can vary by 1v depending on load/charging and you really can't look at voltage w/o loads. So 55v can mean 78% or it can also mean about 100% with no loads. It all depends on the net load. Since SOC can vary 20% at the same voltage depending on net load/charge, it is hard to use voltage alone as an SOC guide.

This is why I am using 55.4v as my absorb setting for now, I don't want to start an absorb cycle at 54.4v as that might only mean approx 60-65% SOC with very good PV generation, and it doesn't make sense to start throttling PV production that early, especially when you don't have enough sun to get to 100% before sunset and you don't want to end the day at 90% when you could have reached 100%.

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by gtarolli » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:34 pm

More observations from today

SOC was at 90% when ABSORB started at 55.4V, two FM chargers were still in Bulk, 5500w PV, 600 watts load
after 15 mins all 3 chargers were in absorb and production throttled back to 3400w, so getting close to 100% SOC
after 30 mins went to float, I wasn't watching so I don't know what SOC was, I suspect around 95% so no matter what happens after that I don't really care, e.g. if the sun disappears. Today I was in float for another few hours, so that's enough to trickle in a few more percent of SOC.

KeithBriggs
Forum Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 16k 2 8k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 6 3.4 simpliphi Grid-tied, HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 51.2.

Re: FNDC and SimpliPhi batteries

Post by KeithBriggs » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:53 pm

Wow you got me to looking closer at my setup. I rocket up to 100% bulk and never absorb. Spent time comparing the new 3.8 specs vs 3.5 vs my specs. I settled on settings somewhere in between. I actually am absorbing when I get somewhere in the 90 to 98% range. I can see how it would be irritating to have it hit 90 and slow down so you don't hit 100%. Its a like the fear of running out of "gas" in the car (but in reverse). I guess I don't understand why there is an absorb time at all. It should absorb until its full and then float. 3.5 specs call for more juice and shorter absorb time than the new 3.8 specs. It does seem that the chemistry allows for a pretty broad range of values. I have 4 FM80 all set the same and its interesting that they kind of have a mind of their own. For example, 2 are floating and two are still absorbing and earlier in the cycle two are in bulk while two are absorbing. Like floating, when you are absorbing and apply an additional load it comes out of it and roughly keeps the same corridor charging while handling the load. I'm impressed.

Interestingly, since I am watching my system charge, I was also watching my LEAF charge (different battery chemistry). I don't know any parameters except the SOC and the AC watts going into it. but it doesn't start stepping down the charging until 98% SOC and the graph (from charepoint when I had it Denver) has what looks like a standard decaying slope where it drops from 6500 watts to zero in about 45 minutes until its charged and and then it goes into a type of float stage for about an hour then shuts off the charging circuit off altogether.

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