Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Grid Tie Applications

Moderators: OutBack, OutBack Moderator Team

pss
Forum Guru
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:40 am
My RE system: 8330 watts in three strings, Flexmax 60 x 3, Radian 8048A, GSLC load center, Mate 3S, Hub 10.3, FN-DC and 900 Amp, 48V Trojan T105-RE battery bank.

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by pss » Sun May 17, 2020 10:31 am

I think useless. Why? Blowing air simply doesn't work. The intake air is hot. it needs to be cool to cool down the components to avoid performance degradation. My system is a Radian 8048A in my garage. In shade with ambient temps up to 115 degrees and loads up to 6000 watts, if you try to blow air, useless. Useless. useless. Small AC unit of 4,000 btu's blowing 55 degree air into the vents makes the Radian think is is a nice cool 70 degrees and it performs up to specs. I tried all the fans, no good. I am going to say even on the FX inverted it would be the same.

Frankly, its 2020 and Outback needs to create the Radian 8049A-WC. What's that you ask? My proposal for a water cooled Radian with an evaporator or radiator externally.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2234
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by raysun » Sun May 17, 2020 10:48 am

pss wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:31 am
I think useless. Why? Blowing air simply doesn't work. The intake air is hot. it needs to be cool to cool down the components to avoid performance degradation. My system is a Radian 8048A in my garage. In shade with ambient temps up to 115 degrees and loads up to 6000 watts, if you try to blow air, useless. Useless. useless. Small AC unit of 4,000 btu's blowing 55 degree air into the vents makes the Radian think is is a nice cool 70 degrees and it performs up to specs. I tried all the fans, no good. I am going to say even on the FX inverted it would be the same.

Frankly, its 2020 and Outback needs to create the Radian 8049A-WC. What's that you ask? My proposal for a water cooled Radian with an evaporator or radiator externally.
Yea! And it needs to look like this!
20200517_074730.jpg

pss
Forum Guru
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:40 am
My RE system: 8330 watts in three strings, Flexmax 60 x 3, Radian 8048A, GSLC load center, Mate 3S, Hub 10.3, FN-DC and 900 Amp, 48V Trojan T105-RE battery bank.

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by pss » Sun May 17, 2020 10:53 am

Actually, now that I think about it, instead of an inverter, just connect a bunch of high quality PC power supplies to the batteries and wire most loads as DC. I like the PC though.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2234
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by raysun » Sun May 17, 2020 10:56 am

pss wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:53 am
Actually, now that I think about it, instead of an inverter, just connect a bunch of high quality PC power supplies to the batteries and wire most loads as DC. I like the PC though.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html

pss
Forum Guru
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:40 am
My RE system: 8330 watts in three strings, Flexmax 60 x 3, Radian 8048A, GSLC load center, Mate 3S, Hub 10.3, FN-DC and 900 Amp, 48V Trojan T105-RE battery bank.

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by pss » Sun May 17, 2020 11:01 am

There's a new Polar Power 20kw DC generator for sale on eBay at close to the price of a Honda eu7000. That will charge a big battery bank.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2234
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by raysun » Sun May 17, 2020 11:06 am

pss wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 11:01 am
There's a new Polar Power 20kw DC generator for sale on eBay at close to the price of a Honda eu7000. That will charge a big battery bank.
I could see a DC genset working for Bulk charging (as long as there's a mechanism to prevent over charging), but how would they support an Absorb phase?

omarbur
Forum Whiz
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 pm
My RE system: My RE system:

Kyocera:
- 9 solar panel 265W Model KU265-6MCA (2,385 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 6 Solar panel 300W Model SWA 300 MONO (1,800 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 9 Solar panel 285W Model SWA 285 MONO (2,565 watts hr)


Midnite:
- 1 Combiner Box MNPV12

Outback:
- 3 Charge Controller FLEXmax 80
- 2 grid-tied Inverter VFXR3524A for 120 VAC
- 1 flexware 500
- 1 Mate3s
- 1 Hub10.3
- 1 FNDC
- 1 RTS
- OpticsRE

Rolls:
- 4 6V Battery 6CS 25P x 820AH

Tools:
- Fluke 117 Electricians True RMS Multimeter
- Robinair Coolant and Battery Refractometer ROB75240
- Solar Crimping Tool (Mc4 Mc3)
- Power Meter Electricity Usage Monitor (Ensupra)
Location: Bayamon, Puerto Rico

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by omarbur » Sun May 17, 2020 11:20 am

Hello jec07131;


I just notice that you can see the messages from inverter.

are you using Wattplot?

or how can you see?

Thanks

omarbur
Forum Whiz
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 pm
My RE system: My RE system:

Kyocera:
- 9 solar panel 265W Model KU265-6MCA (2,385 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 6 Solar panel 300W Model SWA 300 MONO (1,800 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 9 Solar panel 285W Model SWA 285 MONO (2,565 watts hr)


Midnite:
- 1 Combiner Box MNPV12

Outback:
- 3 Charge Controller FLEXmax 80
- 2 grid-tied Inverter VFXR3524A for 120 VAC
- 1 flexware 500
- 1 Mate3s
- 1 Hub10.3
- 1 FNDC
- 1 RTS
- OpticsRE

Rolls:
- 4 6V Battery 6CS 25P x 820AH

Tools:
- Fluke 117 Electricians True RMS Multimeter
- Robinair Coolant and Battery Refractometer ROB75240
- Solar Crimping Tool (Mc4 Mc3)
- Power Meter Electricity Usage Monitor (Ensupra)
Location: Bayamon, Puerto Rico

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by omarbur » Mon May 18, 2020 9:26 am

Guys;
My update today.

Definitively my issue is temperature, the behavior is strange. let me explain:

When the temperature in the inverter getting up 90C (194F), the inverter send countdown to CCs for GT number from 74 to 0, then CCs go silent.
But then when the temperature drops to normal values the inverters never send back the GT number for charge again.

@ At this point I think that is a SW issue.

Greg or Outback team, I need your comments about this behavior.

For return to charge; is necessary put disable the GT in the CCs, my concern is:

why when the temperature drops to normal values the inverters never send back the GT number for charge again?

I need help from Outback at this point. thanks

omarbur
Forum Whiz
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 pm
My RE system: My RE system:

Kyocera:
- 9 solar panel 265W Model KU265-6MCA (2,385 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 6 Solar panel 300W Model SWA 300 MONO (1,800 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 9 Solar panel 285W Model SWA 285 MONO (2,565 watts hr)


Midnite:
- 1 Combiner Box MNPV12

Outback:
- 3 Charge Controller FLEXmax 80
- 2 grid-tied Inverter VFXR3524A for 120 VAC
- 1 flexware 500
- 1 Mate3s
- 1 Hub10.3
- 1 FNDC
- 1 RTS
- OpticsRE

Rolls:
- 4 6V Battery 6CS 25P x 820AH

Tools:
- Fluke 117 Electricians True RMS Multimeter
- Robinair Coolant and Battery Refractometer ROB75240
- Solar Crimping Tool (Mc4 Mc3)
- Power Meter Electricity Usage Monitor (Ensupra)
Location: Bayamon, Puerto Rico

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by omarbur » Mon May 18, 2020 1:50 pm

Hello;
right now is 4:45 PM, the temperature is:

Transformer Temperature 165.2 F (73.8C)
Capacitor Temperature 125.6 F (52C)
Output FET Temperature 132.8 F (56C)

I put a CC GRID-TIE enable, immediately go to "Sleep"

Why? is a SW isssue?

When the temperature drops you are supposed to be able to charge again, normally.

Outback, please help on review this behavior. thanks

omarbur
Forum Whiz
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 pm
My RE system: My RE system:

Kyocera:
- 9 solar panel 265W Model KU265-6MCA (2,385 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 6 Solar panel 300W Model SWA 300 MONO (1,800 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 9 Solar panel 285W Model SWA 285 MONO (2,565 watts hr)


Midnite:
- 1 Combiner Box MNPV12

Outback:
- 3 Charge Controller FLEXmax 80
- 2 grid-tied Inverter VFXR3524A for 120 VAC
- 1 flexware 500
- 1 Mate3s
- 1 Hub10.3
- 1 FNDC
- 1 RTS
- OpticsRE

Rolls:
- 4 6V Battery 6CS 25P x 820AH

Tools:
- Fluke 117 Electricians True RMS Multimeter
- Robinair Coolant and Battery Refractometer ROB75240
- Solar Crimping Tool (Mc4 Mc3)
- Power Meter Electricity Usage Monitor (Ensupra)
Location: Bayamon, Puerto Rico

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by omarbur » Mon May 18, 2020 1:56 pm

A final observation, the second inverter (Port 7), after the "Silent issue" around the 11:30 AM, never came back to sell.

omarbur
Forum Whiz
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 pm
My RE system: My RE system:

Kyocera:
- 9 solar panel 265W Model KU265-6MCA (2,385 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 6 Solar panel 300W Model SWA 300 MONO (1,800 watts hr)

Solarworld:
- 9 Solar panel 285W Model SWA 285 MONO (2,565 watts hr)


Midnite:
- 1 Combiner Box MNPV12

Outback:
- 3 Charge Controller FLEXmax 80
- 2 grid-tied Inverter VFXR3524A for 120 VAC
- 1 flexware 500
- 1 Mate3s
- 1 Hub10.3
- 1 FNDC
- 1 RTS
- OpticsRE

Rolls:
- 4 6V Battery 6CS 25P x 820AH

Tools:
- Fluke 117 Electricians True RMS Multimeter
- Robinair Coolant and Battery Refractometer ROB75240
- Solar Crimping Tool (Mc4 Mc3)
- Power Meter Electricity Usage Monitor (Ensupra)
Location: Bayamon, Puerto Rico

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by omarbur » Tue May 19, 2020 5:42 pm

Hello team;
Today, I notice that if the RST (sensor) is disconnected the Inverters do not send to the CCs the signal for "Silent"
The Max battery voltage was 91F (32.7C).

I disconnect the RST, the inverter was hot 217F (102C), but continue to sell.

My question are:

1. Is the combination of Inverters high temperature & battery temp (32.7C) the issue?

thanks

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by sodamo » Tue May 19, 2020 8:21 pm

Interesting observation.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

Sparky7
Forum Junior Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:13 pm
My RE system: Grid Tied System consisting of;
12 Mitsubishi 225w Panels (2,700 watts)
1 VFXR3648A 1.6.63 Port1 Ser#VFXR1850F1638630
1 FM60 3.3.0 Port2
1 Legacy Hub
1 Mate3s 1.4.3 Ser#MA2009F0100363
4 Universal 100AH AGM Batteries

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by Sparky7 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:20 pm

Hello,
I seem to be having the same problem as the OP. After 12 years, my old VFX3648 died and figured I just upgrade to the new line of VFXR inverters verses repairing the old one. I also replaced my original Mate with a Mate3s. The grid-tie system shown below.

1-VFXR3648A (ser.#VFXR1850F1638630)
1-FM-60
1_Mate3s
1 Legacy Hub
12 - 230w solar panels
Battery bank is 4 12vdc, 100AH AGM Universal Batteries in series.
OpticsRE (Observatory Shed)

I noticed the Mate3 "charger" light would go out in the middle of the day (full sun), no RE going to the loads or the grid, as shown on the panel. The cc is showing "silent" and the inverter is in "passthrough".

I checked the OpticsRE events and it showed page after page of state changes; cc goes from Bulk to "not charging" for 2 minutes, then to absorb for 1 minute, then back to bulk. It seems to start this cycle at the hottest part of the day and seems to be stuck in this loop even after it cools down (transformer, FET and capacitors all below 60c). It does not seem to do this in the morning or cool days and normally stays in bulk charge when everything is working properly and selling to the grid.

After reading in this forum, I checked the GT # and it's at 255 for a while and then goes to 74. At this #, the mode goes to "offsetting", it starts inverting and selling to the grid. The GT# starts counting down and when it reaches zero, everything turns off and the cycle starts over again until the sun goes down.

Hope you didn't fall asleep reading all that but wanted to include everything I observed to help solve the problem.

I tend to agree with the OP that it seems to be a software problem but I hope it's something in my settings. The old inverter never did this and I have it set up pretty much the same.

Thanks for your time reading all that.
Last edited by Sparky7 on Wed May 20, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sparky7
Forum Junior Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:13 pm
My RE system: Grid Tied System consisting of;
12 Mitsubishi 225w Panels (2,700 watts)
1 VFXR3648A 1.6.63 Port1 Ser#VFXR1850F1638630
1 FM60 3.3.0 Port2
1 Legacy Hub
1 Mate3s 1.4.3 Ser#MA2009F0100363
4 Universal 100AH AGM Batteries

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by Sparky7 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:04 pm

Last night I turned off the inverter battery charger, just running just the cc charger to see if there were any conflicts.

System ran fine until about 1:30 pm and the cc started going into the silent (inverter in pass through) mode about every 7 minutes, just like before. The GT # hits 74 and counts down to zero in about 3-4 minutes.

I could try using just the inverter charger but seems like a lousy workaround.

Sparky7
Forum Junior Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 11:13 pm
My RE system: Grid Tied System consisting of;
12 Mitsubishi 225w Panels (2,700 watts)
1 VFXR3648A 1.6.63 Port1 Ser#VFXR1850F1638630
1 FM60 3.3.0 Port2
1 Legacy Hub
1 Mate3s 1.4.3 Ser#MA2009F0100363
4 Universal 100AH AGM Batteries

Re: Charge Controlles Go to Silent

Post by Sparky7 » Sun May 24, 2020 12:04 am

Per your suggestion, I disconnected the battery temp sensors and it worked! I found you have to disconnect both the inverter and the charge controller temp sensors, as it appears the mate/hub share sensors.

My guess is the temp compensation (at higher ambients) is causing the voltage to continuously drop below the sell voltage. I reconnected a sensor and set the compensation to "limited" (with the low end equal to the sell voltage) but it still cycled off and on. The temperatures are way below (even if they are compensated in some way) the high battery temp cutout for it to be that. Temps on the xfmr, fets and caps are a lot lower than any cutoff points.

My current limits and and max charge are set pretty low (I have a small battery bank) but I wouldn't think it would effect anything except lowering my PV wattage output but maybe it does. Getting a little above my system knowledge at this point, so I'll just run without the sensors until we hear something from Outback.

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