Wind Turbine

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Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:22 pm

I'm considering the installation of a wind turbine to augment the 7320W solar array. Don't really need much. Considering 1-1.5 KW range. Anybody have any favorites? Obviously cost is a consideration, but don't want a piece of crap that will just break down or require a lot of maintenance. Noise is somewhat of a consideration. I'm kinda leery of chinese turbines, but if anyone has solid experience with one I would be glad to listen. I'm not even sure what else I should be considering as I've never had one before.

According this this map: http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/windmap.html I live in a horrible location (central Alabama) for wind power. However, I live in the mountains and we most certainly get plenty of wind. I will not even need much of a tower. Will probably just stick the turbine on top of a 23' steel pipe, supported by two additional diagonal pipes.

Thoughts?

Lance
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby jcheil on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:30 am

What you think is windy may not cut it for a wind turbine.

Basically unless you get a "CONSTANT" 15-20mph winds, don't waste your money. Wind "gusts" are irrelevant.
The important thing to look at with the wind turbines is the output "power curve" in relation to windspeed.

They are horribly over-rated. You will notice many 800w rated turbines only produce that rated output at 50+mph winds (sometimes even higher)!
At 10mph winds they may only put out 20-30 watts.

Cheaper to just add more solar. Then you don't have to add all the additional stuff (dump loads, etc) when messing with wind turbines.

And with ANY turbine maintenance is going to be a big issue. Plan on yearly bearing inspections/replacements. Lightning strikes, ice, etc.

I was going to do what you were thinking and am in the same "zone" as you. And even though the "average" wind speed for my areas was 12mph, and I knew that going into it that I would only produce a few watts at that speed, my thought was that at night an extra amp or 2 would be nice.

I bought a simple weather station that logged windspeed and have been running it for almost a year now. And there is no way the turbine would produce anything useful. My average windspeed is barely 5mph. In the long run I am glad I did not waste my money.

Buy a simple weatherstation that logs windspeed and set it up on that 23' pole and run it for a few months and look at your results first.
Acurite makes some inexpensive ones that have USB interfaces so you can download the data to your PC.
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:05 pm

jcheil wrote:What you think is windy may not cut it for a wind turbine.

Basically unless you get a "CONSTANT" 15-20mph winds, don't waste your money. Wind "gusts" are irrelevant.
The important thing to look at with the wind turbines is the output "power curve" in relation to windspeed.

They are horribly over-rated. You will notice many 800w rated turbines only produce that rated output at 50+mph winds (sometimes even higher)!
At 10mph winds they may only put out 20-30 watts.

Cheaper to just add more solar. Then you don't have to add all the additional stuff (dump loads, etc) when messing with wind turbines.

And with ANY turbine maintenance is going to be a big issue. Plan on yearly bearing inspections/replacements. Lightning strikes, ice, etc.

I was going to do what you were thinking and am in the same "zone" as you. And even though the "average" wind speed for my areas was 12mph, and I knew that going into it that I would only produce a few watts at that speed, my thought was that at night an extra amp or 2 would be nice.

I bought a simple weather station that logged windspeed and have been running it for almost a year now. And there is no way the turbine would produce anything useful. My average windspeed is barely 5mph. In the long run I am glad I did not waste my money.

Buy a simple weatherstation that logs windspeed and set it up on that 23' pole and run it for a few months and look at your results first.
Acurite makes some inexpensive ones that have USB interfaces so you can download the data to your PC.


jcheil,

Thanx for your comments. Very helpful.

I actually don't need more solar. I currently have 7320 watts worth. Even on a somewhat cloudy day, my batt is fully charged within a couple hours. Maybe I should think about expanding my batteries, instead (want to be able to run more through the night). I just put up a weather station the other day. I'll keep an eye on it to see what's realistic.

Lance
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My RE system: • IronRidge 3” Ground Mount System (56 Degrees)
• 24 ReneSola 305W JC305M-24/Ab Panels (8 strings of 3, 2 arrays)
• Outback Radian GS8048, FW: 001.004.001
• Outback Load Center GSLC175-PV-120/240 w/FNDC (FW 001.001.071)
• Outback MATE3 FW: 003.005.000
• 2 Outback FlexMax80s, FW: Both 002.001.000
• Outback Battery Temperature Sensor
• HUB10, FW: 001.000.000
• Outback FWPV-12 Combiner Box, 8 strings, 2 Midnite Solar Surge Protectors on 2 runs
• 24-125-13 48V 750AH GB Industrial Battery w/watering system
• Yanmar Slow-Turning 5KW 240V Diesel Generator
• Generac XT 8KW 240V Gasoline Generator

Re: Wind Turbine

Postby ed.may.rem on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:37 pm

Lance - as an installer of solar and wind systems, I agree that you likely don't need, and may not want a wind turbine. I never recommend turbines to my customers unless: 1) they are off-grid 2) live in a CONSISTENTLY windy region 3) don't have the solar days to support their life style. Turbines will require maintenance and aspirin to ease your tension headache. AND, as jcheil wrote, they are far more costly to install than additional solar. If your battery bank does not carry you through the night, or even for two days when solar input is limited, you DEFINITELY need a bigger "gas tank" (battery bank). Many websites provide a system size estimator you can use to calculate your battery resource size. Best regards...
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:50 am

ed.may.rem wrote:Lance - as an installer of solar and wind systems, I agree that you likely don't need, and may not want a wind turbine. I never recommend turbines to my customers unless: 1) they are off-grid 2) live in a CONSISTENTLY windy region 3) don't have the solar days to support their life style. Turbines will require maintenance and aspirin to ease your tension headache. AND, as jcheil wrote, they are far more costly to install than additional solar. If your battery bank does not carry you through the night, or even for two days when solar input is limited, you DEFINITELY need a bigger "gas tank" (battery bank). Many websites provide a system size estimator you can use to calculate your battery resource size. Best regards...


Thanx, Ed.

I am off-grid, but based upon the feedback I'm getting, I'm probably going to abandon the wind turbine course.

I actually have a pretty good battery (commercial 48V, 750AH). However, based upon some suggestions I had received, I had the factory lower the specific gravity a bit to increase batt life, but that takes me down to about 650AH. It actually does fairly well for my needs. The only problem that arises is in the middle of winter, when the nights are long. The voltage is fine in the mornings except if we run the coffee pot and the well pump kicks on. This knocks the voltage down for a brief time and will sometimes shut down the inverter for a bit. I'm also looking at adding a few more items that will draw energy throughout the night (freezer and other items).

My first option would be to raise the SG back up to factory (1.285). This would be the simplest and cheapest, by far, but would decrease the batt life.

Second option would be to get a second batt, identical to the one I have. My current one is only a year old and hasn't been hammered too hard, so maybe they would work well in parallel? This is quite an expensive proposition ($7,500). This is money I really don't have and I'm not sure how much life I'm going to actually get out of the FLA's. They are guaranteed for 7 years. How much life is reasonable to expect with the lower SG and never dropping below 50% (in practice, actually more like 70%)?

My third option (which has two sub-options) is a NiFe battery. If I had known about these before buying the "forklift" battery, I may have gone that route.

The first sub-option would be to get a small NiFe system to augment the FLA batt, but it is unlikely that they will play well together in parallel and managing use and charging of two separate batteries does not mesh well with simplifying my life. If there is something that can manage this process for me, then it may be viable. By the time the FLA craps out, maybe I could afford to add another bank of NiFe's.

The second sub-option would just be replacing my current FLA with a comparable NiFe. Quite pricey. About $15k. Though much more expensive, with the 10-20 year maintenance schedule, these will probably be working for my grandchildren.

I don't actually know anyone who uses NiFe batt's. I only have the marketing hype from the manufacturers to go on. More research is in order.

Take care,

Lance
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My RE system: • IronRidge 3” Ground Mount System (56 Degrees)
• 24 ReneSola 305W JC305M-24/Ab Panels (8 strings of 3, 2 arrays)
• Outback Radian GS8048, FW: 001.004.001
• Outback Load Center GSLC175-PV-120/240 w/FNDC (FW 001.001.071)
• Outback MATE3 FW: 003.005.000
• 2 Outback FlexMax80s, FW: Both 002.001.000
• Outback Battery Temperature Sensor
• HUB10, FW: 001.000.000
• Outback FWPV-12 Combiner Box, 8 strings, 2 Midnite Solar Surge Protectors on 2 runs
• 24-125-13 48V 750AH GB Industrial Battery w/watering system
• Yanmar Slow-Turning 5KW 240V Diesel Generator
• Generac XT 8KW 240V Gasoline Generator

Re: Wind Turbine

Postby blackswan555 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:43 am

As already mentioned, forget the wind turbine unless you are on top of a hill with good laminar wind flow, Even then,,,,, EG next time you see a big wind farm, Are they all working ? :shock:
As also mentioned, you have about twice as much solar as battery, But you have a reasonable battery so I would expect a bit more as long as there are no silly overnight loads,
Have you done a load study ? With a little bit of timing you may be good with what you have ?

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:54 am

blackswan555 wrote:As already mentioned, forget the wind turbine unless you are on top of a hill with good laminar wind flow, Even then,,,,, EG next time you see a big wind farm, Are they all working ? :shock:
As also mentioned, you have about twice as much solar as battery, But you have a reasonable battery so I would expect a bit more as long as there are no silly overnight loads,
Have you done a load study ? With a little bit of timing you may be good with what you have ?

Tim


Thanx, Tim.

I really appreciate the feedback from all. I have this proclivity towards learning things the hard way. It's nice to have some experienced counsel to go on.

Lance
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My RE system: • IronRidge 3” Ground Mount System (56 Degrees)
• 24 ReneSola 305W JC305M-24/Ab Panels (8 strings of 3, 2 arrays)
• Outback Radian GS8048, FW: 001.004.001
• Outback Load Center GSLC175-PV-120/240 w/FNDC (FW 001.001.071)
• Outback MATE3 FW: 003.005.000
• 2 Outback FlexMax80s, FW: Both 002.001.000
• Outback Battery Temperature Sensor
• HUB10, FW: 001.000.000
• Outback FWPV-12 Combiner Box, 8 strings, 2 Midnite Solar Surge Protectors on 2 runs
• 24-125-13 48V 750AH GB Industrial Battery w/watering system
• Yanmar Slow-Turning 5KW 240V Diesel Generator
• Generac XT 8KW 240V Gasoline Generator

Re: Wind Turbine

Postby ed.may.rem on Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:34 am

Lance - the short answer(s) to your challenges are to reduce loads AND increase the battery bank. My wife and I found that by making coffee in the morning on the LP gas stove in a percolating pot makes better tasting coffee and eliminates the excessive energy drain on your batteries. This made the difference between our backup generator starting in the morning or not starting. Same goes for the microwave. We actually do most cooking and warming on the stove as the microwave is a huge draw as well. If your inverters are turning OFF in the morning, you may be closer to divorce than you want to be! That will cost FAR more than a new bank of batteries. ;-) And, I don't understand why you'd need to spend $7,500 on a second battery bank. Should be far less than that.

Now, addressing the issue of adding battery capacity - be very careful about this. It will work, BUT, the entire battery system will only provide as much energy as the weakest bank in your system - likely the older bank. Sounds like your state-of-charge is dropping very low each morning and that is very damaging to the life of your batteries. Sorry - the nature of batteries. If you wish, look me up on my website and feel free to call. www.rem-sun-wind.com Best regards, Ed
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:08 am

ed.may.rem wrote:Lance - the short answer(s) to your challenges are to reduce loads AND increase the battery bank. My wife and I found that by making coffee in the morning on the LP gas stove in a percolating pot makes better tasting coffee and eliminates the excessive energy drain on your batteries. This made the difference between our backup generator starting in the morning or not starting. Same goes for the microwave. We actually do most cooking and warming on the stove as the microwave is a huge draw as well. If your inverters are turning OFF in the morning, you may be closer to divorce than you want to be! That will cost FAR more than a new bank of batteries. ;-) And, I don't understand why you'd need to spend $7,500 on a second battery bank. Should be far less than that.

Now, addressing the issue of adding battery capacity - be very careful about this. It will work, BUT, the entire battery system will only provide as much energy as the weakest bank in your system - likely the older bank. Sounds like your state-of-charge is dropping very low each morning and that is very damaging to the life of your batteries. Sorry - the nature of batteries. If you wish, look me up on my website and feel free to call. http://www.rem-sun-wind.com Best regards, Ed


Hi Ed,

I actually purchased a stove top coffee percolator, but the misses likes to wake up to coffee already brewed. Maybe I can re-address this with her.

I'm pretty sure I'm not really killing my battery. It's only the surge that is spiking down. The voltage returns to a more normal level (47-48V in the morning) after the well pump gets going. I suspect that in addition to the normal drawdown overnight, the lower SG may be lowering the batt's capacity to crank out the amps. Not really sure.

If I'm going to match my current battery, $7,500 is what I paid.

Lance
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My RE system: • IronRidge 3” Ground Mount System (56 Degrees)
• 24 ReneSola 305W JC305M-24/Ab Panels (8 strings of 3, 2 arrays)
• Outback Radian GS8048, FW: 001.004.001
• Outback Load Center GSLC175-PV-120/240 w/FNDC (FW 001.001.071)
• Outback MATE3 FW: 003.005.000
• 2 Outback FlexMax80s, FW: Both 002.001.000
• Outback Battery Temperature Sensor
• HUB10, FW: 001.000.000
• Outback FWPV-12 Combiner Box, 8 strings, 2 Midnite Solar Surge Protectors on 2 runs
• 24-125-13 48V 750AH GB Industrial Battery w/watering system
• Yanmar Slow-Turning 5KW 240V Diesel Generator
• Generac XT 8KW 240V Gasoline Generator

Re: Wind Turbine

Postby blackswan555 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:02 pm

what are your absorb v & time settings ?do you do SG's ? I suspect you are undercharging ? you have a theoretical 325ah/ 15kwh at your disposal every night, Why are you reaching LBC ?
Tim
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:43 pm

blackswan555 wrote:what are your absorb v & time settings ?do you do SG's ? I suspect you are undercharging ? you have a theoretical 325ah/ 15kwh at your disposal every night, Why are you reaching LBC ?
Tim


Hi Tim,

Funny you should mention that. I just got off the phone with a tech guy from the battery company. Apparently the charge parameters given to me by the sales rep are wrong. Making changes. We'll see what happens. And no, I WASN'T doing SG's, but I sure am now!

Lance
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• 24 ReneSola 305W JC305M-24/Ab Panels (8 strings of 3, 2 arrays)
• Outback Radian GS8048, FW: 001.004.001
• Outback Load Center GSLC175-PV-120/240 w/FNDC (FW 001.001.071)
• Outback MATE3 FW: 003.005.000
• 2 Outback FlexMax80s, FW: Both 002.001.000
• Outback Battery Temperature Sensor
• HUB10, FW: 001.000.000
• Outback FWPV-12 Combiner Box, 8 strings, 2 Midnite Solar Surge Protectors on 2 runs
• 24-125-13 48V 750AH GB Industrial Battery w/watering system
• Yanmar Slow-Turning 5KW 240V Diesel Generator
• Generac XT 8KW 240V Gasoline Generator

Re: Wind Turbine

Postby blackswan555 on Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:07 am

What were they ? what are the new settings ? Have you done an EQ recently ? Have you got the battery temp sensor installed ?

But I strongly suggest you start checking and recording your SG's, They are the only "real" way to know your batteries condition, Advice given by anyone should only be taken as a guideline and confirmed with SG measurement.

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby Lance2j on Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:02 am

blackswan555 wrote:What were they ? what are the new settings ? Have you done an EQ recently ? Have you got the battery temp sensor installed ?

But I strongly suggest you start checking and recording your SG's, They are the only "real" way to know your batteries condition, Advice given by anyone should only be taken as a guideline and confirmed with SG measurement.

Tim


Hi Tim,

I can't find my notes on the previous charge parameters, but they were substantially lower than the current ones the tech recently gave me:

EQ: 62.16
Absorb: 60
Float: 54.4
Re-float: 50

There was some confusion with the tech regarding charge terminology, as the Outback settings are labeled differently than the terminology he uses in the commercial battery market.

The tech said that the battery will actually take a higher EQ voltage and like it. He also said that the battery can take an EQ every single day. The important thing is not to allow the battery temperature to rise above 105 degrees and that 110 degrees is extremely detrimental. Yes, I have a BTS installed and configured.

We've had nothing but cloudy weather since I've made the changes, but the results are fantastic (as far as the morning voltage is concerned)!!! I just got a new hydrometer yesterday (Brady Instruments C98). I'll check the SG again as soon as we get a full sunny day. I have high hopes. I had some inkling that the battery wasn't really getting a full charge cuz it never got very thirsty for water (it would go for months without needing water). Now it's bubbling nicely and will take a little water now.

Now, when I do the EQ, the charging is a little strange. The system seems to only want to use one of the two FM80's. In any other charge mode it will efficiently use both FM80's. This doesn't seem right. Has anyone else seen this?

Lance
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Location: Sylacauga, AL
My RE system: • IronRidge 3” Ground Mount System (56 Degrees)
• 24 ReneSola 305W JC305M-24/Ab Panels (8 strings of 3, 2 arrays)
• Outback Radian GS8048, FW: 001.004.001
• Outback Load Center GSLC175-PV-120/240 w/FNDC (FW 001.001.071)
• Outback MATE3 FW: 003.005.000
• 2 Outback FlexMax80s, FW: Both 002.001.000
• Outback Battery Temperature Sensor
• HUB10, FW: 001.000.000
• Outback FWPV-12 Combiner Box, 8 strings, 2 Midnite Solar Surge Protectors on 2 runs
• 24-125-13 48V 750AH GB Industrial Battery w/watering system
• Yanmar Slow-Turning 5KW 240V Diesel Generator
• Generac XT 8KW 240V Gasoline Generator

Re: Wind Turbine

Postby blackswan555 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:35 am

What absorb time are you using ?
60v seems a little high for absorb & Why you would want to EQ every day is puzzling ? I would take a guess as these are "motion" designed batteries, He is giving the parameters for that, eg fork lift truck, Heavy discharge, Need it charged as fast as possible, Machine down time is financially more important than long cycle life of batteries,

Tim
My comments are based on my experience and research, They are not endorsed or checked by Outback.I am an independent British electrician living in Spain, So please take this into account when reading /acting on my post`s.
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Re: Wind Turbine

Postby ian2345 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:14 am

Wind turbines are awesome but risky.
Usually, you can find them on the coast, and on the mountain.
The main logic is this: If you are living in a warm place, get solars! If you are living in cold place, feel free to get wind turbine but place it on windy place. You need at least 10 mph wind

Floating wind farms is new technology that might be usefull to you. It is a wind turbines placed in water, and only upper part of it is on surface for winds.
http://www.evolving-science.com/environment/floating-wind-farm-installed-coast-scotland-00336
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