Outback settings help

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MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Outback settings help

Post by MilesOutBack » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm

I am very new to this and will do my best to give you the right info but I need someone to check over my numbers that I have saved into the Mate before I hit the program button.

I have:
1x Flexmax60 connected to 9x255 watt panels = 2295 watts.
1x Flexmax60 connected to 4x170 and 8x80 watt panels = 1320 watts.
TOTAL WATTS 3615 watts.
1 x VFXR3048E Inverter
Mate3s
24x Energystore 2 volt flooded lead acid batteries. 830aH

Battery data for 12 volt (x 4 for 48 volt):
BMAX.(Boost Voltage) 15.6 (62.4)
EMAX. (Equalise Avoltage) 15.6 (62.4)
ETIM. (Equalise time). 2 hours
ABSV. (Absorption charge v) 15 (60)
Bulk. (Bulk volts). 14.4 (57.6)
FLTV. (Float voltage). 13.8 (55.2)
LOFF. (LVD cut-off). 11.3 (45.2)
LON. (LVD reconnect). 12.8 (51.2)

ATIM (Absorb time). 1 hour

I have set the wizard accordingly except the ”refloat value. Any ideas?
Also when I set the PV array it started at 1000 watts in the Wizard so having to turn it up to 3615 watts didn’t seem right so can someone comment on that.
Do any of the readings seem to high or just wrong?
Also, whilst I am here. Cut in and out levels for the generator. In:45.5 out 52 volts. I feel 45.5 is far too low and 52 volts a little to low. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance. I am very nervous about cooking a very expensive piece of equipment.
Last edited by MilesOutBack on Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2909
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback settings help

Post by raysun » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:51 am

MilesOutBack wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm
I am very new to this and will do my best to give you the right info but I need someone to check over my numbers that I have saved into the Mate before I hit the program button.

I have:
1x Flexmax60 connected to 9x255 watt panels = 2295 watts.
1x Flexmax60 connected to 4x170 and 8x80 watt panels = 1320 watts.
TOTAL WATTS 3615 watts.
1 x VFXR3048E Inverter
Mate3s
24x Energystore 2 volt flooded lead acid batteries. 830aH

Battery data for 12 volt (x 4 for 48 volt):
BMAX. 15.6 (62.4)
EMAX. 15.6 (62.4)
ETIM. 2 hours
ABSV. 15 (60)
Bulk. 14.4 (57.6)
FLTV. 13.8 (55.2)
LOFF. 11.3 (45.2)
LON. 12.8 (51.2)

I have set the wizard accordingly except the ”refloat value. Any ideas?
Also when I set the PV array it started at 1000 watts in the Wizard so having to turn it up to 3615 watts didn’t seem right so can someone comment on that.
Do any of the readings seem to high or just wrong?
Also, whilst I am here. Cut in and out levels for the generator. In:45.5 out 52 volts. I feel 45.5 is far too low and 52 volts a little to low. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance. I am very nervous about cooking a very expensive piece of equipment.
I couldn't find a reference to the battery monoblocks, but the specs in the OP look pretty standard for a big FLA battery.

One slightly confusing figure is the Bulk and Absorb voltages.

Bulk charge is a constant current phase. The battery is charged with up to the maximum allowable charge current until its voltage rises to the Absorb voltage. Using the "rule of thumb" of 10-13% of the C20 battery capacity, (an assuming 830AH is that C20 figure) 13% = 108A. The maximum charge current during bulk should be limited to 108A total. Check the battery documentation to validate this parameter.

Absorb voltage = 60.0 is at the high end for Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries, but typical of the big capacity cells. Absorb is a constant voltage phase. The battery is held at a fixed voltage (60.0V) and the charge current steadily declines as the battery "fills up". Missing from the specifications above is Absorb Time - the amount of time the Absorb phase should be run.

Actually, there are two factors that can be used to terminate the Absorb phase: time, or net charging current.

Time (typically 3 hours, on average, for a battery that size) is an approximation that depends on some complex factors that vary with each charge cycle, so is usually set as a fixed average.

Net charging current (End Amps, Charged Return Amps, Tail Amps) is the target charge rate at the end of the phase, typically 2-3% of the C20 AH capacity 17 - 25A in this case.

The battery is considered at 100% State of Charge (SoC) at the end of the Absorb phase. For FLA batteries, this can be confirmed by reading the specific gravity of the battery electrolyte.

Not mentioned in the equipment list is a battery monitor. Running a battery storage system without one is akin to flying a small aircraft without a fuel guage. Voltage is the easiest parameter to measure, but is an unreliable indicator as it varies by both SoC and instantaneous load. "Coulomb counting" monitors that track the current into and out of the battery are more effective. In the Outback ecosystem, the FLEXnet DC is such a monitor, and enables some advanced charger control as well. Other monitors like the Victron BMS7XX series are well regarded, though don't directly integrate with the OB gear.

This addressed only a small portion of the questions asked, but is a lot to digest on its own. Others will certainly respond with more input.

Cheers!

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback settings help

Post by Mike Curran » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:58 am

Battery data for 12 volt (x 4 for 48 volt):
BMAX. 15.6 (62.4)
EMAX. 15.6 (62.4)
ETIM. 2 hours
ABSV. 15 (60)
Bulk. 14.4 (57.6)
FLTV. 13.8 (55.2)
LOFF. 11.3 (45.2)
LON. 12.8 (51.2)
I don't recognize some of these variables. No doubt they are from your battery manufacturer.

BMAX might be what they spec for high voltage limit but (on my system, anyway) there's no setting for a high voltage limit, AFAIK.

Note Outback equipment does not have separate settings for absorb and bulk - I would lean toward using the higher absorb voltage setpoint (60V) rather than the bulk setpoint but perhaps other forum users may have better advice.

Also, not sure what LON & LOFF are.

As far as refloat, on my grid-tied system I set the inverters' and charge controllers' refloat 0.2 volts higher than the fixed 25.0V rebulk setpoint. For me, refloat only makes sense because I'm grid-tied and use the grid to keep the battery up at night ( battery insomnia? :grin: ). Rebulk is adjustable on your inverters and the setting depends on how low you want to let your battery get before the system initiates a new charge cycle.

I'm sure others will chime in on this. Hope this is helpful as a start.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2909
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback settings help

Post by raysun » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:33 am

MilesOutBack wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm
I have set the wizard accordingly except the ”refloat value. Any ideas?
REFLOAT is the voltage at which the charger will reenter the Float phase. Around 50V is typical for FLA batteries.

There is another parameter as well, REBULK, typically set around 48V for FLA
MilesOutBack wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm
Also when I set the PV array it started at 1000 watts in the Wizard so having to turn it up to 3615 watts didn’t seem right so can someone comment on that.
IDK about the wizard, but in OpticsRE, the array capacity is set in kW, so 3.6 instead of 3615.
MilesOutBack wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm
Do any of the readings seem to high or just wrong?
I assume LOFF/LON are Low Battery Cutoff (LBCO) and Low Battery Cut In (LBCI) in Outback parlance.
45.2V is essentially a dead battery. LBCO is set by default to 46V, as the Outback inverters produce less reliable output below that voltage. I'd set LBCO somewhat higher (above the minimum inverter input voltage.) Do not rely on LBCO to manage battery discharge, that's somewhat akin to stopping one's motorcar by driving into a stone wall.
MilesOutBack wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:57 pm
Also, whilst I am here. Cut in and out levels for the generator. In:45.5 out 52 volts. I feel 45.5 is far too low and 52 volts a little to low. Any ideas?
45.5V is very low for a battery in an open circuit, but can be in the low-normal range for a battery under load. Nonetheless, you may wish to engage the generator at a higher voltage. 47V may be a good starting point, then adjust for load conditions. 52V would imply a good dose of charge has been put into the battery, especially under load. Higher voltage means longer generator runtime.

Question you didn't ask:
How should thd charging voltages be set on the charge controllers, relative to the inverter chargers?

In order to give priority to the PV charge controllers (and use maximum PV harvest when both CCs and Inverter chargers are running simultaneously) set the Inverter charger Absorb and Float voltage settings 0.4V LOWER than those same settings on the FM charge controllers.

MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Re: Outback settings help

Post by MilesOutBack » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:49 pm

I have added the descriptors to the readings in the original post above.

ATIM (Absorption time). 1 hour.


Raysun “ Bulk charge is a constant current phase. The battery is charged with up to the maximum allowable charge current until its voltage rises to the Absorb voltage. Using the "rule of thumb" of 10-13% of the C20 battery capacity, (an assuming 830AH is that C20 figure) 13% = 108A. The maximum charge current during bulk should be limited to 108A total. Check the battery documentation to validate this parameter.”

My book says: CHRG (Max Charge Current). 10% of C/10

So at 10%, is 51.2A. I am not sure where to put that reading.

Batteries 521 Ah/C10
565 Ah/C20
830 Ah/C100

Short circuit amps. 3840 amps

I am carefully reading and trying to get an understanding so please be patient.
Last edited by MilesOutBack on Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Re: Outback settings help

Post by MilesOutBack » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:06 pm

Raysun

Question you didn't ask:
How should thd charging voltages be set on the charge controllers, relative to the inverter chargers?

In order to give priority to the PV charge controllers (and use maximum PV harvest when both CCs and Inverter chargers are running simultaneously) set the Inverter charger Absorb and Float voltage settings 0.4V LOWER than those same settings on the FM charge controllers.


Currently one CC has settings .5 volt higher than the other in some instances. Now that I have the Mate3s, should they be evened up and the inverter settings for Absorb and Float lowered by 0.4v?

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2909
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback settings help

Post by raysun » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:11 pm

MilesOutBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:06 pm
Raysun

Question you didn't ask:
How should thd charging voltages be set on the charge controllers, relative to the inverter chargers?

In order to give priority to the PV charge controllers (and use maximum PV harvest when both CCs and Inverter chargers are running simultaneously) set the Inverter charger Absorb and Float voltage settings 0.4V LOWER than those same settings on the FM charge controllers.


Currently one CC has settings .5 volt higher than the other in some instances. Now that I have the Mate3s, should they be evened up and the inverter settings for Absorb and Float lowered by 0.4v?
The charge controllers should be programmed identically. Also, they should be calibrated to the battery voltage.

The inverter absorb and float settings should be 0.4V less than the charge controller settings. The inverter should also be calibrated to the battery voltage.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2909
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback settings help

Post by raysun » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:25 pm

MilesOutBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:49 pm
I have added the descriptors to the readings in the original post above.

ATIM (Absorption time). 1 hour.

CHRG (Max Charge Current). 10% of C/10

Batteries 521 Ah/C10
565 Ah/C20
830 Ah/C100

Short circuit amps. 3840 amps

I am carefully reading and trying to get an understanding so please be patient.
OK. Use the C20 (565 AH) capacity for charging calculations.

Maximum charge rate: 56A. The charge controllers should be "throttled back" so that their combined output does not exceed this rating. That implies a maximum charging power of 50V x 56A = 2800W.

The best way to control maximum charge current is with the Global Charge settings in the Mate. Here's a post on how to set it up:
http://outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic ... 32035757e1

MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Re: Outback settings help

Post by MilesOutBack » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:04 pm

I have just been reviewing my readings before I hit the program button. I am quite nervous as I don’t want to mess this up.

Going over the “Settings” as they currently are now (installed), it has the battery Ah as 100. Should it be the C/100 = 830 A/h or the C/20 = 565?

I have now calibrated the CC’s but can’t see where to calibrate the inverter.

Will the Mate3s automatically update the CC’s? Will it also automatically reduce the inverter settings by .4 v?

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2909
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback settings help

Post by raysun » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:52 pm

MilesOutBack wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:04 pm
I have just been reviewing my readings before I hit the program button. I am quite nervous as I don’t want to mess this up.
Don't worry too much. If you're like the rest of us, you'll walk through all the device settings after the wizard updates, anyway. ;)
Going over the “Settings” as they currently are now (installed), it has the battery Ah as 100. Should it be the C/100 = 830 A/h or the C/20 = 565?
C/20 is generally used, as its closer to the discharge pattern of most systems. If a very high or very low discharge rate is expected, then another C can be used.
I have now calibrated the CC’s but can’t see where to calibrate the inverter.
Calibration is via software. There's a setting in OpticsRE. IIRC, there's a calibrate function in the Mate as well, under Settings->Inverter
Will the Mate3s automatically update the CC’s? Will it also automatically reduce the inverter settings by .4 v?
Yes. CC settings can be updated via the Mate.

It will not automatically reduce the inverter charge voltage settings.

MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Re: Outback settings help

Post by MilesOutBack » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:51 pm

Thanks Raysun for your help (and everyone else). The button was pushed and nothing blew up. I also now have OpticsRE using a TPLink AV600 powerline which is great. :grin: :grin:

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2909
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback settings help

Post by raysun » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:21 am

MilesOutBack wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:51 pm
Thanks Raysun for your help (and everyone else). The button was pushed and nothing blew up. I also now have OpticsRE using a TPLink AV600 powerline which is great. :grin: :grin:
Glad to hear everything is working out!

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