Batteries again

General Talk

Moderators: OutBack, OutBack Moderator Team

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one MX60 (2007)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied.

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W
- 2 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 150Ah total
- future AC coupled input from one row of Westinghouse AC modules*
- future AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules*
* waiting for firmware update from OB

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Batteries again

Post by Mike Curran » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:32 pm

Lets hope we all get 8000 cycles out of them with some lov'n care. Then they just might outlive us!
Supposedly 10,000 cycles with 80% DOD!!!
 I have tricked the Rts to do nothing but report temp
With a Skybox you can set the temperature compensation slope to 0 mV/°C/cell, no trickery required :smile:
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 24 (8x3) 300w panels (7200w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Batteries again

Post by gtarolli » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:47 pm

Yes, 10,000 cycles would be even better.

That's great that the Skybox let's you set the slope of the curve, maybe new firmware will let an FM80 do the same, hint, hint, wink, wink :-)

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi
36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
4 FX3048T - Updating to Radian 8048/4048
RTS
4 FM 80 charge controllers
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3
OpticsRE - Piha Kahuku
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA
10Kw MEP 803a
Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sodamo/
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Batteries again

Post by sodamo » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:05 pm

My expected usage, I don’t expect to see more the 65% and that very rarely.

Installer said we didn’t need RTS. We left it in place but likely settings are default. Our temps vary from 58° to 83° with only handful of days at each end.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 24 (8x3) 300w panels (7200w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Batteries again

Post by gtarolli » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:52 pm

Temps here are about the same (on Kauai). Yes, you don't need RTS, but it WILL alter the float and absorb temps if you just leave it alone, i.e. leave it at the default. The FM80 has a screen that shows you the target temp, which is your temp. compensated float or absorb setting. I found the RTS changed the target from what I wanted. I don't know what happens if you unplug it, I like to have it plugged in so I can monitor the temp, but I do NOT want it changing my target temps. So... I recommend looking at your target temps (only can be done on the FM80 screen), or looking at what the float voltage is being maintained. And if you are seeing it changing your desired setting, see my posts on using the limited range, or PM me. It doesn't make a huge difference as it's usually just a few tenths of volts, but if you are a perfectionist, and I suspect you might be :-) , then you will want to get is "just right".

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi
36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
4 FX3048T - Updating to Radian 8048/4048
RTS
4 FM 80 charge controllers
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3
OpticsRE - Piha Kahuku
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA
10Kw MEP 803a
Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sodamo/
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Batteries again

Post by sodamo » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:03 am

Really liking these SimpliPhi. Fully charged yesterday, reset FNDC. This morning SOC @ 75%. Lowest voltage overnight 52.9. No generator 🤙
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one MX60 (2007)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied.

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W
- 2 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 150Ah total
- future AC coupled input from one row of Westinghouse AC modules*
- future AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules*
* waiting for firmware update from OB

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Batteries again

Post by Mike Curran » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:15 am

Yeah, they're definitely not hard to get used to!
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 24 (8x3) 300w panels (7200w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Batteries again

Post by gtarolli » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:15 am

Attached is a voltage reference chart that is somewhere on this board ... in case you didn't already download it. Remember this is for the older model batteries and a C/2 discharge, which for you would be 20 KW! I assume your normal heavy loads are 2-4KW. I find a 2-4KW load lowers my voltage about .5v, I estimate a large load will cause about .8v drop (it seems to be a bit exponential, e.g. the first KW lowers it a lot, then less and less). Anyway, voltage is hard to use as an SOC measurement because it quickly drops to just under 53 and then most of the power is between 53 and 52v and under 51 it drops off quickly. Your batteries might be slightly different as the 3.8 seem to have different recommended charge params than the older 3.4 and 3.5 models. So amps seems to be a better measure of SOC, and FNDC's SOC is based on amps. If you hit 100% every day, then SOC won't drift too much. How do you have your charge params set - as those are critical to resetting SOC every day? Here are my settings for 6 slightly smaller batteries with a 56v absorb setting:

Charged voltage: 55.6
Charged time: 1 Minutes
Charge Factor: 96 %
Charged Return Amps: 66 amps

The last setting is the tricky one I find, small values don't seem to work, and I can't find a good description of the exact computations used. It doesn't seem to compare net amps to this value, only gross. So if you have a heavy load during the very short absorb cycle they recommend (6 minutes) then your PV will be producing many amps and it might not trigger.

I note that I enter Absorb mode at around 97-98% SOC, which I think makes sense as voltage rises rapidly during the last few percent. Then the watts produced by the PV drop dramatically during the 6 minutes of absorbtion as the batteries quickly store the last few amps and SOC reaches 99-100%. Also note that voltage rises REALLY fast once you break thru 55v, it only takes a few minutes with good sun to go from 55v to 56v (and beyond). That's a "feature" of LI, and very different than FLA. When float ends and the chargers go SILENT, voltage quickly drops to 54v as there is almost no storage between 54v and 56v, then FLOAT starts and holds at 54v until the sun goes down. SOC usually reads 99-100% during float mode if I have enough PV to satisfy the loads.

I only run my generator about once a month, I doubt you will need to even run it that often, except to keep it in shape...

p.s. do you use any of the relays? I have experimented a LOT with my relays for dumping excess watts, but still don't use them. I couldn't find one setting on any device that did what I wanted so I passed the 9v output (12v?) of one relay through another relay to form an AND condition, e.g. in FLOAT mode AND SOC is over 97%. I meant to hook it up to a small electric hot water heater, but still haven't.
Attachments
SimpliPhi Voltage Reference of Battery State of Charge.pdf
(709.74 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one MX60 (2007)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied.

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 (2x7) Talesun 275W
- 2 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 150Ah total
- future AC coupled input from one row of Westinghouse AC modules*
- future AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 modules*
* waiting for firmware update from OB

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Batteries again

Post by Mike Curran » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:43 am

Outback issued an app note for Simpliphi 3.8s: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/docum ... p_note.pdf

I used these parameters (page 2 of 9) for my 3.8s.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi
36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
4 FX3048T - Updating to Radian 8048/4048
RTS
4 FM 80 charge controllers
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3
OpticsRE - Piha Kahuku
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA
10Kw MEP 803a
Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sodamo/
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Batteries again

Post by sodamo » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:52 am

Thanks, good info.

I found this graph for the 3.8.
A702E474-5EB8-4A48-ACED-92D56C0F92B3.jpeg
Hmmmm, can’t see why 2x image

I’m following the latest Outback settings 9/23/19
A702E474-5EB8-4A48-ACED-92D56C0F92B3.jpeg
Not using any relays. My usage is down a bit right now, but will be getting both pool and hot tub back online at some point, assuming I get caught up :grin: Need to redo pool filter (new sand & valve) and replace hot tub timer. Not a priority when batteries were acting up. Would imagine hot tub heater (4kw) and pumps can take care of any excess production. I will play with settings to leave batteries as close to 100% as I can.
Attachments
2A3B9549-ADD1-4F67-9353-25155D30E26D.jpeg
Last edited by sodamo on Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi
36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
4 FX3048T - Updating to Radian 8048/4048
RTS
4 FM 80 charge controllers
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3
OpticsRE - Piha Kahuku
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA
10Kw MEP 803a
Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sodamo/
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Batteries again

Post by sodamo » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:55 am

Mike Curran wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:43 am
Outback issued an app note for Simpliphi 3.8s: http://outbackpower.com/downloads/docum ... p_note.pdf

I used these parameters (page 2 of 9) for my 3.8s.
Me too, page 3. grin: :grin:
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi
36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
4 FX3048T - Updating to Radian 8048/4048
RTS
4 FM 80 charge controllers
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3
OpticsRE - Piha Kahuku
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA
10Kw MEP 803a
Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sodamo/
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Batteries again

Post by sodamo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:09 am

Used 25kwh yesterday and overnite. Wife used electric pressure washer most of day.
This morning SOC 75% 53.1 volts. Lowest since calibration has been 75%, yesterday 76%.
Liking these SimpliPhi :grin:
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 24 (8x3) 300w panels (7200w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda 3000 generator + one spare
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Batteries again

Post by gtarolli » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:18 am

Batteries are like disk drives - the more you have, the more you use :-) 2 years ago before I upgraded the system I think we lived on < 6 kw per day with only 3-4kw generated per day via 12 year old panels and outback equip and a few kw via generator running for a few hours. Now we use 12-20kw/day but can generate that on a partly sunny day. Unfortunately its been cloudy in the PM for the last few days, so now we are at 25%, about 100 amps left out of 400. Voltage is 51.4 but drops under 51 with a big load. One FM80 just kicked in for 40w, the other should start soon, but it takes until 9am to really get going. But we can limp along until then ... today is sunny and hoping to generate > 25kw. Your system is 2x mine, I think you could gen > 50kw on a decent day and fully charge you batteries even if they are at 10-20% (on the rare occaission). Of course with AGS gensets you probably will never go below 20-25%.

acouch
Forum Junior Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:35 am
My RE system: Flex Power 1 with:
FX3648 inverter/charger
FLEXmax 80 charge controller
Mate3

Re: Batteries again

Post by acouch » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 am

When the installer respondeded . "A few hours later came a response telling me my bank was failing as were all of them"
Did he go in to any detail?

I have 4 Aquion S-30, 48 vdc that we bought Jan of 2016 and they have hit the wall. The lead acid batteries we replaced would degrade steadily over time but these Aquions did well up until 6 months ago. That's when we started to notice a reduced storage capacity. While investigating the issue we found that Aquion had filed for bankruptcy and the company that bought it and planed to resume operations as Aquion had walked away from warranties and all support for units produced prior to the bankruptcy.

Fast forward to this week and these batteries just failed. They will charge all day (85% SOC, the SOC number has been a less useful metric with the sodium ion than the lead acid batteries) and 3-5 hours after the sun is off the panels they drop below the operating voltage for the FX3748 we use.

I can't find any problems with panels, connections, wiring and the programming is still set to the charge profile I got from Aquion's published instructions (AQ-OP-00016_C) that I used for the initial set up.

The life span was not as advertised. Has anyone discovered what is causing these batteries to fail ? I'd like to know if there could be a problem with system compatibility, a bad batch from the factory or if operator error played a part. I'd settle for educated guesses.

Adam

raysun
Forum Czar
Posts: 971
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 Strings @ 2 Series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings @ 2 series)

Re: Batteries again

Post by raysun » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:43 am

acouch wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 am

The life span was not as advertised. Has anyone discovered what is causing these batteries to fail ? I'd like to know if there could be a problem with system compatibility, a bad batch from the factory or if operator error played a part. I'd settle for educated guesses.

Adam
Coming up with a new battery chemistry and technology is relatively easy compared to making them practical under normal, real-world usage. There's lots of promising chemistries in labs around the world that will never see the light of day because the effort to make them stable and long-lasting doesn't bear fruit.

I looked long and hard at Aquions when they were introduced, and decided their slow charge/discharge chracteristics looked a bit worrisome. I wondered if apparent high internal impedance was going to be an issue. I still wonder if that is the case.

I doubt if you, or the other users, who followed the protocols laid out by Aquion did anything wrong. I do think this is a classic example of a "1.0" release that failed.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi
36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
4 FX3048T - Updating to Radian 8048/4048
RTS
4 FM 80 charge controllers
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3
OpticsRE - Piha Kahuku
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA
10Kw MEP 803a
Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sodamo/
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Batteries again

Post by sodamo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:21 pm

acouch, sorry to read as your actions seem to mirror mine - look to blame anything but the Aquions.

Here is appropriate cut from my dealer response:

“ Thanks for getting in touch, sorry to hear about the problems with the batteries. Unfortunately I do not have good news for you.

What you've described is a clear sign your Aquion batteries are failing. A bad battery won't bring an entire bank down. And over the last 2 years we've been noticing more and more signs of premature failure of Aquion batteries. It seems to have become a widespread issue with all of their batteries created. The first generation wasn't as bad, but we're seeing failures of those crop up now as well. Over the last year and a half we've gradually been replacing Aquion installations with alternative technology.

There was a class action lawsuit regarding this matter but because of Aquion's bankruptcy it didn't go anywhere. We had one remaining contact at Aquion who was advocating for warranty support for us after the bankruptcy but they've since fallen off the radar, and the Chinese company that bought them has since made it clear they have no intention of honoring the warranty on any of their products.

It's a hugely unfortunate and disappointing situation - the company left thousands of customers around the world stranded without any kind of life raft.”

Raysun - not exactly. Mine are more Aquion 1.+ or maybe 2.0. According to my installer less reported failures with earlier version.

Really hursts, but lovin the SimpliPhi’s so far.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
Forum Czar
Posts: 971
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower One: FX3048T, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
Outback 200NC batteries (8 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 Strings @ 2 Series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings @ 2 series)

Re: Batteries again

Post by raysun » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:08 pm

I had a sailboat that was hull #50 from the company. They were obviously just getting started and didn't have the manufacturing infrastructure, so the fiberglass hull way laid up by hand. The result was a nearly indestructible hull, especially compared to the later issues that were made using blow molds and chopper guns.

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